Argentine Real Estate

[Exon123]

What about if someone just wanted to own a *home and not care about having it as an investment. Would you still buy?

Example: A young guy like me (40) has a few pennies but not many. He goes to South America all the time and leaves his apartment empty in NYC.

Maybe he gets the backing to purchase an apt in BA of up to roughly 100k. He can then be assured he owns a home. He lives in BA (half way to civilization) and takes month long trips to lima colombia or some other budget location. He rents out the apartment (maybe) when he is gone.

Is this guy (me! Losing anything in your humble opinion?

There has to be some benefit to owning even if it's in Argentina. Right?

Yea You're "Nuts" or have more money than brains, rent the Apartment on a long term basis, two years or more.

There's another "Crisis" coming and Argentine real estate will go in the tank.

Exon

[Artisttyp]

All because of bureaucratic problems. Finally, he gave up in disgust! In the future, expect more problems and a more confiscatory modus operandi! DO NOT BUY IN AR!

What about if someone just wanted to own a *home and not care about having it as an investment. Would you still buy?

Example: A young guy like me (40) has a few pennies but not many. He goes to south america all the time and leaves his apartment empty in NYC.

Maybe he gets the backing to purchase an apt in BA of up to roughly 100k. He can then be assured he owns a home. He lives in BA (half way to civilization) and takes month long trips to lima colombia or some other budget location. He rents out the apartment (maybe) when he is gone.

Is this guy (me!) losing anything in your humble opinion?

There has to be some benefit to owning even if it's in argentina. Right?

[SteveC]

Airplane,

I sold my first property here in October 2006, and maybe things have changed, but then it was pretty straightforward. No requirements for proof of residency abroad, but I had to go to the AFIP to get a declaration that I owed no taxes, and because I'd stated I was divorced, had to get an official statement of this from my home country. That was pretty complicated as it was 20 plus years ago. Had to go through the "Apostille procedure" and get an official translation. But proof of foreign residency, no.

[Airplane]

I wasn't able to find anything about this with my ability to search the forum for it.

I am a US citizen. I don't have resident status in Argentina. I stay there 6 to 7 months per year.

I own 2 places in Bs As and want to sell one.

My accountant in Bs As has told me that the AFIP requires a "certificado de residencia en el exterior" to sell property and without this certificate, I can't sell it.

I have to get this certificate from, in my case, the Argentine consulate in Los Angeles.

I don't own or rent anything in the USA. I stay with friends the 2 to 3 months of the year I am there. I use their address for my USA mailing address. I don't receive any bills, or anything else at this address, that the consulate will accept as proof of residence and so they won't give me a certificate. The person I talked to at the consulate also told me that I don't need this certificate to sell property.

I don't know whether my accountant, or the guy at the consulate is mistaken, so I don't know what to do next. The accountant insists that I must have this certificate.

Any non Argentine resident who has sold property there have any ideas?

Thanks

[Sham Bo]

What's the deal with building permits?

If you own a plot of land, what's the situation with building on it?

Assume you can:

A) Buy a plot of land.

Be) Hire a builder to erect a house on it without seeking permission first.

C) Hire a decent layer.

Does that mean that, because legal decisions are generally delayed by 5 to 7 years in Argentina, a person can build a house without permission, and live in it for 5 years?

Presumably after 5 years you might get a demolition order but hey, you got to live there for 5 years!

[Miami Bob]

Recognize squatters' rights, but have methods to more quickly determine whether the title holder has lost thier rights to the property or still maintains title to the property. The difference is that it takes 5 to 7 years to resolve this type of situation in Argentina. In Florida you might need 6 months to one year.

Assuming both sides have competent attorneys.

This court system and sqatter's rights are the real reasons why there are not mortgages widely available in Argentina. Mexico and Brazil changed their laws over the last few years and magically a broad based mortgage industry was born in both countries.

[El Alamo]

In many countries owning property is a sound investment. Usually the property appreciates and there are well defined laws which protect your investment.

Argentina is not one of those countries. By and large, if it flies, floats, fucks or is located in Argentina rent it, don't buy it.

It is incredible but true. If you own property in Argentina and somehow homeless people are able to break into that property (house in Buenos Aires or a farm in Patagonia) it will take the courts several years to evict the squatters. By that time you will be, lucky to have anything that resembles the property you once owned.

If you ask Argentineans why they have no respect for property rights they will look at you in a puzzled manner as if to say "Isn't it this way everywhere?"

Argentina is the country that time forgot. Argentina has peculiar ideas and concepts similar to an island inhabited by dinosaurs.

I

[Bodhi]

Greetings,

Considering the seeming inevitability of the nex AR economical crisis, what are forum readers views and experience regarding the possible decline of real estate values then? Particularly I am interested in attractive land, like northern Pagagonia, and such.

Many thanks!

[Jaggar]

But you need to add a much higher percentage for AR country risk, vacancy, taxes, and repairs. Personally, I woudn't buy it unless I netted 15-20%! Don't dismiss that we are in the midst or a severe decline in world real estate prices. Forget the ''giddy''days of the last several years.

This makes sense and if we use a 15% hurdle rate, a property that sells for $400K would have to yield $60K in annualized rental revenue (or a whopping $5K per month) What can you rent in B. Aires for 15,000 pesos per mes?

Thoughts well appreciated supporting purchasing (Tu compras) property in be. Aires. Even a $80K place in San Telmo.

Jaggar

[Jaggar]

I have been looking at the economics associated with buying vs selling. I am now in a "special" apt in a prime recoleta neighborhood (right next to Las Heras why Pueyrredon) Other side pueyrredon than Madaho. These digs are a penthouse (13th floor) with a skyline view and slight view of "Rio de Plata."

Rent: U$D1100 per month.

Market Value - $400K (I have been doing my homework)

If US buyer buys at $400K

Rental cost per annum $15,000 (conservative estimate - account seasonality)

US Cost of capital (say 6%) [cost of money in us - borrow rate]

400,000 * 6% = $24K US.

Rent is still a bargain and purchase price too high.

My humble opinion.

Jaggar

[El Perro]

I do think there are some good oportunities in San Telmo or Barracas (new appartments! But it just will never be Puerto Madero.

It's old, shitty, dark, dirthy, it stinks, it's full of cartoneros and it's not safe.

I've spent alot of time in San Telmo and it is as safe, or more safe than many other areas. Lotta dogshit-yes. I've seen more cartoneros in Congreso. A little dirty-yes. Who gives a fuck. I ain't sleeping in the street. As for dark, the streets are lit. The ongoing idea with some that San Telmo is more dangerous than most barrios is absolute bullshit. I've seen more snatch and grabs in Centro, Recoleta and Palermo. I've been harassed by more beggars, panhandlers and generic scumbags in Centro and Congreso by far. It is not the perfect area in which to live, but that has more to do with lack of decent grocery stores (though a nice place opened recently on Independencia between Defensa and Bolivar) and the fact that it can be loud unless you search and find a place a little off the beaten path.

And yes, it will never be Puerto Madero. That is a good thing.

[Sinistra]

What's better than Puerto Madero? San Telmo stills cheap, and if the city gov makes a few changes San Telmo and part of Barracas it's going to be Puerto Madero's extension. MCSE's free R. E. Consultant advise.

Doubling your money over a couple years ago is great, but 2008 is not 2006 and certainly not 2004. A "good deal" in PM I saw was 90m sq for about $300k and most places are a lot more. Will that be worth $450k or $600k in a couple years? That's more than almost any city in the US and prices there are going in the other direction. There's still more downside risk than upside opportunity. Prices are already as high as many European cities. You can get a downtown Miami condo nearly identical to a Puerto Madero one for less money (though condo fees are higher in Miami) While opportunities may exist, there are opportunities in other places too and tying up hundreds of thousand of CASH equity is insane at this point. I locked in a decent rental price for a couple of years and am going to ride this thing out. There's more upside in the markets now than in BA real estate and it's a hell of a lot more liquid.

[MCSE]

In Puerto Madero there are hundreds, maybe thousands of new apartments going up and they aren't selling. The real estate offices around here are empty. If you haven't noticed, apartment prices have stagnated even while thousands of new places are coming online. Bubble: everybody wants to becomes an architect, everybody is an investor in real estate, new buildings are everywhere, those apartments on the market aren't moving and everybody talks about housing and wants to own an apartment that can be rented to foreigners. Anybody who doesn't think we're in a bubble is in deep, deep denial.

The real answer is no one is buying and take a look to the Palermo Hollywood Towers, no one is working anymore in there. Marketshare in BA in my experience over-reacts to any small thing. I can't tell you if Puerto Madero is a bubble or not a bubble, but I can tell you that I have made a very good deal in Puerto Madero. Of course, the key is to risk. Some of the fellas I speak to, they want to make a lot of money, without risking, without working and in a super-safe environment. All right, the reality it's sometimes you'll make it, and some times you'll not. I have sold a pre-con in Puerto Madero and almost duplicated the capital in less than 2 years. Of course, those 2 years sweating like a horse, but, anyway, the key is to work and research a lot, and buy cheap, like gipsies does, yes I learned from gipsies buying cheap and selling expensive if possible, but, if not possible, you can get out of it without deep wounds.

What's better than Puerto Madero? San Telmo stills cheap, and if the city gov makes a few changes San Telmo and part of Barracas it's going to be Puerto Madero's extension.

MCSE's free R. E. Consultant advise.

[Sinistra]

In Puerto Madero there are hundreds, maybe thousands of new apartments going up and they aren't selling. The real estate offices around here are empty. If you haven't noticed, apartment prices have stagnated even while thousands of new places are coming online. Bubble: everybody wants to becomes an architect, everybody is an investor in real estate, new buildings are everywhere, those apartments on the market aren't moving and everybody talks about housing and wants to own an apartment that can be rented to foreigners. Anybody who doesn't think we're in a bubble is in deep, deep denial.

[Chascomus]

The official at my bank tells me that a person MUST reside here in Argentina AND have some utility in their name. AND must have the account for 6 months in good standing BEFORE you can do a transfer. THEN they give you about 4 pages of "red tape", (tramites) to fill out in order to get your wired money. It's a pain in the ass!