Quality of life in BA

[Precocious One]

The Impossible has just happend, I'm in total agreement with Jackson.

But lets just supose I wanted to throw in the towel here in "Sex Prison" and move to Buenos Aires full time and become an American Porteno.

First I'd rent a place for a year too get my feet on the ground in Argentina.

I'd use that year to check out the whole country, not just be. A.

Assuming I finally decided on Buenos Aires, then I'd look at neighborhoods, Palermo, Belgrano, Vencenite Lopez, Tigre, even Pilar and live at the counrty club in a real American style house. Most Mongers that post have never heard of Pilar, its beautiful and "Classy".

There no way in Fuck I'd live in the Micro Center or Capital Federal proper. The place is just to busy and too congested with too many people for me. Its good for us the the visiting Monger cause the action is their, but not a place to live the day to day life.

Next I'd do just as the wealthy Porteno's do. I'd have my "Faviorata" move into my house, not my apartment. Then I'd set up my regular Mistress in some sort of Studio apartment. For varrity I'd use the internet and private apartments and clubs.

Theres plenty of Pussy in Argentina and all of it is willing to commute for a few extra peso's.

Even still I don't think I'd ever buy in Argentina.

Assets run in cycles in various economies the world over. As an example before 9-11 we had the biggest market bubble in history, after a huge stock market crash. To recover from that the "Fed" dropped real interest rates to the floor in an effort to rejuvenate the econmony. The result was investors saw an almost unlimited supply of cheap money and started using it to buy real estate on the cheap since there were no returns in stocks or bonds. That resulted in the largest appreciation in real estate the American economy has ever seen.

Now the air has gone out of that bubble and both stocks and bonds are back in favor with stocks at an all time high and interest rates rising. And guess what, now real estate is in the "Dog House". The same will happen in Argentina.

Where I'm going with this is why gamble and how much more money are you going to make by taking that gamble on Argentine real estate, using all cash mind you.

Again using the $100,000 figure I can get anyone a sure safe bet of 5%. Thats $5,000 per year to pay rent with. But taking on just a little risk, (a lot less risky than Argentine real estate) I'll get you 7% or 8% , or $7,000 to $8,000 per year for rent. As an example I bought some Calpine "Junk Bonds" that have returned 50% in 18 months. The opportunites are out there but you need capital to excute on them when the time comes. Therefore I don't want capital tied up in assets I can rent for less than the cost of capital, (the cost of capital is roughly 5% today) plus then I have access to the Capital when the right asset comes along to invest in.

I love Argentina, its a great place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.

Exon

"I'll get you 7% or 8% ,"

Bold, bold statement. I realize this was made back in June before the current credit crisis, but many of us feel that there is no way possible any of the FCB's are going to be able to sustain higher rates let alone current rates. There are global asset bubbles everywhere that are currently unwinding. The FCB's are going to trash cash in their attempt to sustain the prices of overvalued assets in RE, equities and bonds. That safe five percent ROI you were talking about may be twice what treasury bills offer one year from now.

Inflate or die.

[CarneValistico]

Wise words Exon,

I remember the situation when we had 1996 - 2000, allmost all building companies were so busy and fully booked that the market overheated and later - even untill now - many buildings, of all kinds, are still empty.

Result: oversuply, rent per m2 crashed down in Berlin for about 80% and still remains on this level, and 100s of building companies shut down.

So if this is going to happen in BA, than you are right with your metapher " blood on the street ", than you can get a real bargain.

Have a great evening,

Carnevalistico

[Exon123]

CarneValistico,

Trust me I will never move full time to Buenos Aires, the old saying, "Its a great place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live their" holds true with me. I'll keep my US Dollars in the USA and take my chances here. Not in a foreign country where I don't speak the language, really don't know the customs, with a political system rife with corrpution. Moreover, with inflation running 20% or more it won't be long before most of us can't afford to monger their. Prices have doubled in the last 5 years. "Hide and watch", see what happens after next Octobers election, you'll see!

I own all the real estate I want too here in the USA. With the exception of a warehouse I'm in the market place for. And I'm not buying any property down their. The place is way over built with beautiful brand new apartment buildings standing vacant, There all over town. Next time any of you go to Hugo's look across the street, one of the most beautiful new buildings I've seen in be. A. Its been vacant for over a year since it was build. Just one example out of hundreds more.

Jackson probably has the right idea, wait 5 or 6 years until theres "Blood in the Street", (just an expression) then you buy something. The real estate ression in Argentina has already started, its just that most people don't reconize it yet. Why employ capital in an unliquid when you can rent for less than the cost of capital.

All that being said, I love Argentina and I'm fortunate since I can jump on a plane anytime I want for a mire $1,200 bucks, (chump change for me) and be their anytime I want. And if I ever changed my mind, I'd cut a "deep deal" on a long trem lease with options to re-new and use the income off my US assets to finance the deal. That way I could alway "Walk Away" from the deal with very little loss if I ever had to return to the USA unexpectedly.

Nothing in life lasts for ever and the party in Buenos Aires is no exception. There will come a time and its not that far off when you'll be looking at prices similar to 2001, then see how well you like it.

Exon

[CarneValistico]

Well, looking through the various thread I spend time reading the posts in here.

Regarding the posts of Exon, and Jackson (funny both end with " on ", are they twins? Lol) it turns out that all newbies as well as experienced BA mongers - thinking of buying a real estate, should keep their " powder " dry.

Exon had a nice to do list about what he would do IF he would settle down in BA. I have to say that it is a charming description how to make yourself comfortable in BA, esp. Setting the Favorita in the house and the misstress in the studio. Jesus, I laughed my ass off. But something makes me believe that Exon will move permanently to BA sooner or later. Come on man, you have the BA virus allready!

But behind all the jokes and serious advices as well, there is a risk to buy now, when the new crisis is waiting around the corner. I mean, what Exon describes with the words " get the feet on the ground in BA and look around " is the best advice of all. I am seriously planing to settle down in BA, not in a rush, just finish some contracts, avoid new bigger things and slowly but surely arrive there and doing nothing for a while could be also an option. I mean nearly nothing;-)

[Thomaso276]

Okay, this morning I had to get up real early for some personal business at the Hospital Rivadavia (blood test) Took the 59 bus to get there by 6 for an alleged appointment at 7 am.

About 75 people waiting in line before the doors open at 7 am (we are around # thirty) Follow the crowd in and find out that we need to go through the courtyard to a waiting area in the back. We lose the crowd who must be waiting for different tests. Now its fukin cold this morning so we enter the small room an pull a number. There is no heat in this waiting room, fuckin wild cats are going in and out, paint peeling off walls and ceilings. Sit and wait (not too many people) and two ladies come out to take everyone's paperwork. They are dressed for winter because there is no heat on their side of the window either. I took a little stroll around the grounds. The place is another example of crumbling infrastructure. The gardens are all dead, garbage all over, PVC pipe holding things together, metal plates over holes in sidewalks, broken cement and paint from the 50's, absolutely minimal lighting on the grounds. This is a city operated hospital.

Ladies behind the window hand people empty plastic soda and water bottles from a cabinet for their pee sample (would you like a Pepsi or 7 UP residue in your sample sir? I guess they have a real good way of sanitizing them so the test is accurate! Only one lady came in with a storebought container from Farmacity ensuring her test results should be okay.

Sign says they start extraccions at 7 30 am until 8 30 am, so naturally at 8:15 they open another room and we all shuffle in where there are about 7 staff and a long table. They proceed to bang out twenty people in about 10 minutes and then shut down.

Time for their two hour break I guess. Another reason to always carry private health insurance.

[Redondo]

A) 3 months after which you need to leave the country and come back.

B) Yes it is easy, hourly rate for a private lesson is normally around 5 US an hour.

C) Pretty safe if you don't do stupid things.

D) Most foreigners stay in Recoleta, Palermo and Belgrano. That is probally a bit more expensive then most other parts.

E) Around 600 to 800 dollars all in if you stay in the 3 zonas named.

F) Probally Buenos Aires with trips to other cities on Friday and Saturday.

G) What I heard is that in Cuba most girl are dark skinned and all hookers. You can probally bone a girl for a lipstick or a chocolate.

[Sprite13]

Thank you for your help, much appreciated.

I will definitely read and browse the forum for answers to some of my questions. I am from Canada. Again, thanks to you and anyone for your tips and feedbacks.

[El Perro]

Greatly informative thread guys! Learned a few things about this fine city of Buenos Aires. But I still have some questions. I am considering spending a lengthy time in a latin country next year. I'm hesitating between 2 countries right now: Cuba and Argentina. I'd appreciate if the Argentina experts could answer some of the questions I have:

A) I'm planning on staying up to 6 months in Argentina. I have a canadian passport. What's the maximum amount of time I can stay in Argentina?

B) I'd want to enroll in a local university to improve my spanish. As a foreigner, is it easy to enroll for a language course? If yes, which university / school would be best? What's the cost like for a spanish course?

C) Safety-wise, how safe is Argentina / Buenos Aires?

D) Which city would you recommend for me to stay there during my stay? And which part of be. A. Would you recommend as being the better one to stay in terms of location, safety and cost?

E) Is it easy to rent an appartment for 3-5 months in be. A. If yes, what is the price I should be expecting to pay for rent?

F) Last but definitely not least, which city would be best for mongering, both pros and non-pros?

G) If anyone who is familiar with both Cuba and Argentina could kindly do a comparaison of these 2 countries on the points I'm interested, I'd be truly grateful.

Cheers.

Uh, hold on, it is Saturday and I have alot of things to do, but I will sit down and address all these questions later today. In the meantime, a review of the Forum might answer some of them for you beforehand. Let me know please so I know when to terminate my research. Also, visa / stay issues depend on where the fuck you are from, so more info is necessary.

[Sprite13]

Greatly informative thread guys! Learned a few things about this fine city of Buenos Aires. But I still have some questions. I am considering spending a lengthy time in a latin country next year. I'm hesitating between 2 countries right now: Cuba and Argentina. I'd appreciate if the Argentina experts could answer some of the questions I have:

A) I'm planning on staying up to 6 months in Argentina. I have a canadian passport. What's the maximum amount of time I can stay in Argentina?

B) I'd want to enroll in a local university to improve my spanish. As a foreigner, is it easy to enroll for a language course? If yes, which university / school would be best? What's the cost like for a spanish course?

C) Safety-wise, how safe is Argentina / Buenos Aires?

D) Which city would you recommend for me to stay there during my stay? And which part of B. A. would you recommend as being the better one to stay in terms of location, safety and cost?

E) Is it easy to rent an appartment for 3-5 months in B. A. If yes, what is the price I should be expecting to pay for rent?

F) Last but definitely not least, which city would be best for mongering, both pros and non-pros?

G) If anyone who is familiar with both Cuba and Argentina could kindly do a comparaison of these 2 countries on the points I'm interested, I'd be truly grateful.

Cheers.

[Redondo]

K, who's mentor was Roberto Lavagna invented a very offensive economic strategy. As long as the reserves in $US are increasing, inflation is not a problem. Argentina gains a lot more from this strategy than controlling inflation.

When the ARS no longer will attract the market, then it's time to end this strategy. It should mean increasing the interest rates and the need to keep a high public surplus during a business cycle.

Argentina will then suffer from a normal recession, but will have so much reserves in $US so the economy will both halt inflation and no speculation against the country will have success.

I predict that Argentina, with it's new LA developed countries; Brazil Colombia, Chile and Mexico will continue to have economical progress.

The European Union wants co-operation. So do the US, but on the surface both the latin countries and the US are forced to play "poker". They need each other. The best example is Venezuela. The major pat of their oil-eport goes to the US. The major part of industrail investments comes from the US, especially in the oil-business.

K, Lavagna, Macri and Carrio, etc. Have a huge task in front of them, Who wants to invest in ARG long-term? How can they bring back a major part of the $US135 bllions that Argentines put in Swiss account during the 90's? (Almost equal to the the amount of the default)

Saludos M

First it doesnt make sense to have Argentina in the same sentence as Brazil. They are completly uncomparable.

Second there is no investment worth talking of in Argentina. Argentina is not a investor friendly country and will never be.

Third, capital flight does still happen and will increase a lot if the economy goes through a rough spell.

Fourth, now there is work for an Argentine, but this can easily change and with the amount of Argentine nationals abroad and dual-nationalities in Argentina there will be an enourmos brain-drain again, just like in 1999 to 2004. Many Argentines are in the process of getting dual-nationality and in most cases its not hard for them to get it and it only makes them more likely to leave.

[Jack 24]

Hi Jack 24,

I'd have to disagree with your cab driver. I came to BA just a couple of months after the crash specifically looking to buy an apartment, and specifically in Recoleta. (Exon isn't the only forum member who visited Argentina regularly before the devaluation) My assumption at the time, having looked at apartments before the devaluation, was that I would then be able to purchase a 100,000 peso apartment for approximately $33,000 USD. Not.

First, I discovered that all the properties that had been generally advertised and listed in pesos were, in the minds of the owners, actually pesos or dollars, both being equal at the time. However, after the devaluation, the owners quickly changed their stance. I made several offers and talked directly to several owners, and their position was universal, something along the lines of "My property was worth $100,000 dollars before the devaluation, and it's still worth $100,000 dollars now. The value of the peso is irrelevant."

Second, I learned that because very few owners had mortgages to pay on their properties, and thus had little carrying costs, and thus there were very few motivated sellers. For sure, some owners panicked and sold their properties for 80-90% of their pre-devaluation USD value, but most Argentine owners, having survived previous economic meltdowns and also suffering from garden-variety Argentina pride, simply decided that they would wait out the crisis with their property priced at the original pre-devaluation price. Ultimately, they were correct.

As for me, I determined that monthly rents, at an international low of 1/3 of a percent of the value, to be a better deal. Even today I am renting a $100,000 apartment in Recoleta for just 1/2 a percent of it's value per month, and I still think that's the best deal going in BA.

Thanks,

Jackson

Thanks for your input. I thought the guy knew what he was talking about. I've learned a lot from this thread.

[Bairespirata]

K, who's mentor was Roberto Lavagna invented a very offensive economic strategy. As long as the reserves in $US are increasing, inflation is not a problem. Argentina gains a lot more from this strategy than controlling inflation.

When the ARS no longer will attract the market, then it's time to end this strategy. It should mean increasing the interest rates and the need to keep a high public surplus during a business cycle.

Argentina will then suffer from a normal recession, but will have so much reserves in $US so the economy will both halt inflation and no speculation against the country will have success.

I predict that Argentina, with it's new LA developed countries; Brazil Colombia, Chile and Mexico will continue to have economical progress.

The European Union wants co-operation. So do the US, but on the surface both the latin countries and the US are forced to play "poker". They need each other. The best example is Venezuela. The major pat of their oil-eport goes to the US. The major part of industrail investments comes from the US, especially in the oil-business.

K, Lavagna, Macri and Carrio, etc. Have a huge task in front of them, Who wants to invest in ARG long-term? How can they bring back a major part of the $US135 bllions that Argentines put in Swiss account during the 90's? (Almost equal to the the amount of the default)

Saludos M

[Conchuir]

Jackson, Redondo, Straylight etc:

Sincere thanks for your sound opinions and advice. Obviously I need to continue to rent desirable apartments for my visits over the coming years, thus avoiding the headaches of non-resident ownership while waiting patiently to see what the "lay of the Land" is in regards to property purchase when the time comes for me to cash in my paltry stateside chips and make the "big move". It seems like there is a fair chance that one might find a suitable bargain at any given time on 3-4 year cycles.

It appears that you all feel that Argentina's economically volitile tendencies are set to continue into the future. These tendencies after all are what make Argentina "ARGENTINA".

Thanks again to why'all for helping me reach this decision. And always remember that if BA property values do indeed escalate significantly over the next 3 years, then one of my future trips to BA will be entirely dedicated to hunting each of you down individually. You don't want your international obituaries to divulge your cause of death and your whereabouts when it occured!

Thanks again Lads.

CONCHUIR

[Redondo]

Greetings Conchuir,

After the devaluation there was value to be found in the BA had suddenly become a very cheap city to live in, but the devaluation did not lead to a wave of discounted property prices. In fact, property owners and their agents began touting Argentina property to foreigners by comparing the prices for property in BA to other major cities of the world, which of course made BA properties appear undervalued, and which of course had no relevance to the issue but did induce many "investors" to buy here.

I predict that in Argentina's next great economic collapse will be different in that there will many suddenly panicky foreigner owners who will lack the staying power of the experienced Porteno owners and instead look to sell out at what will then be truly bargain prices. I give it 3 to 8 years, probably shortly after the Kirchner administration leaves power.

In the mean time, I will continue to enjoy bargain-basement rental rates.

Buying a property as a place to live is completely different than buying on as an investment.

Thanks,

Jackson

I would predict there is another crisis in 2008 or 2009. I think it can't be avoided.

Argentina curently lives on a commoties bubble, but prices of Grain, mais and Soja have never been higher and should come down soon especially if there will be a (soft) landing of the American economy. Meat can't be exported, construction is down for 9 straights months, tourism with the high inflation will soon decline and gas and oil soon need to be imported instead of begin exported. This last thing will mean prices have to raise, thus raising inflation even more.

Kirchner will probally get a big mandate (60-70% of the votes) and that will mean that prices will increase and corruption will be on the raise. It has happend before and it will happen again.

I would say just like the world bank there will be some sort of crash in either 2008 or 2009.

[Redondo]

Jackson,

Am I then correct in deducing from your post on 6/3 that directly after the crash there was suprisingly little value to be found. It seems to me after following this thread that the sterotypical present 100K USD apartment has been similarily priced before, during & after the crash. Could this really be the case?

My motivation to spend said 100k on an example apartment would be to firstly have a place of my own to enjoy while visiting BA. I would probably turn it over to one of those rental agencies that I've used in the past and for them to rent it out as much as possible to hopefully recieve enough income to help me a little while I would hopefully erase the necessary stateside borrowings over the next few years.

My most important consideration in purhasing would be to have a home in a place I love that would hopefully have accrued significantly in value by the time I'm able to reside there full time after my stint is completed here in "Sex Prison" (12-15 more years)

Would such aspirations be pure folly?

I would say 12-15 years is a long time frame and I don't think if you don't live full-time in BA its not worth to buy. You are probally better off renting (that leaves you with no fixed costs as well)