Dissecting the Spanish Language

[MCSE]

In the interest of getting the title of this thread correct, let me pose this question:

I understood (probably incorrectly) that two distinctive differences between Spanish and Castellano was the pronunciation of the double "LL" in that in Spanish the "LL is pronounced as "y" sound and in Castellano it is pronounced as an "s" sound, and also the use of "Vos" vs "Tu".

I have never heard the "LL" pronounced as a "S" or heard "Vos" used instead of "Tu' anywhere in any spanish country except Argentina, and I have often heard Argentinos refer to their language as "Castellano".

First, am I accurately identifying these two distinctions as being unique to the dialect spoken in Argentina?

Second, if the term "Castellano" is interchangeable with the term "Spanish:", then what is the correct name of the dialect spoken in Argentina?

Thanks,

Jackson

Jackson: The official language spoken in Argentina is Castellano. Kids in school are teached to say Yo, Tu, El. But, the informal it's "vos".

The variation which does not reachs the level of "dialect" it's "porteño", and includes the "vos", the pronunciation of the "ll" and "why" as a kind of "sh", like "sho" instead of "Io". To say "I".

There is however a dialect, the "lunfardo", a real dialect, but it's more used in the lyrics of some tangos, for example, "Gira, Gira":

"Cuando rajes los tamangos.

Buscando este mango.

Que te haga morfar."

This extract of text would not be understood by a "castellano" (the official name for spanish) speaker. So it's a dialect.

ps: link to the full lyrics of the "Yira, Yira" tango song http://www.nomorelyrics.net/es/song/283304.html
ps#2: The more cohomprensive explanation in wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castellano

[Aqualung]

In the interest of getting the title of this thread correct, let me pose this question:

I understood (probably incorrectly) that two distinctive differences between Spanish and Castellano was the pronunciation of the double "LL" in that in Spanish the "LL is pronounced as "y" sound and in Castellano it is pronounced as an "s" sound, and also the use of "Vos" vs "Tu".

I have never heard the "LL" pronounced as a "S" or heard "Vos" used instead of "Tu' anywhere in any spanish country except Argentina, and I have often heard Argentinos refer to their language as "Castellano".

First, am I accurately identifying these two distinctions as being unique to the dialect spoken in Argentina?

Second, if the term "Castellano" is interchangeable with the term "Spanish:", then what is the correct name of the dialect spoken in Argentina?

Thanks,

Jackson

Look at it like this - In the US you speak English, a British language different from Welsh or Gaelic. In Argentina we speak Castellano, a Spanish language different to Catalan or Gallego.

The English you speak in the US is different to the English spoken in England so to mark the difference we say American English so the Castellano spoken in Argentina is different therefore we can call it Argentine Castellano.

[Dickhead]

"Vos" is used in Uruguay as well (note that RH already posted that but I was still in the process of posting and he beat me to it). In fact when I was in Medellín, Colombia, I heard it and was surprised. I was told that it is trendy or popular there. I went back and looked at my notes from my last Spanish class that I took in 2003 and it said the same thing: young people use the "voseo" in various places in Latin America to be, like, "hip." My notes say that Chile is another place this occurs but I have spent a fair amount of time there and have never heard "vos."

A mansion guest was taking tango lessons and his Argentinean profesora always used "tu" with me. I asked her why she did not use "vos" and she got a disgusted look on her face and said (in English) that she was better educated than that. I never liked her too much anyway and I liked her less after that.

Now let's get into "vos" vs. "usted." I was always taught, when in doubt use usted. Use usted with your boss, use usted until invited to do otherwise, use usted with your elders (who are becoming fewer and fewer! Then I also heard that usted is not used as much here in Argentina (or at least Buenos Aires) as this is a more informal culture.

At this point I find I seldom use usted and I habitually use vos. I will use usted with older people and it is an effort to remember how to conjugate with it. Roxana the Barber says using usted is "putting up a wall." Becoming aware of this, I notice that in Carrefour it is about 50/50. Some cashiers say "¿cómo está?" = usted and some say "¿cómo estás?" = vos. I have asked Mariana (our maid) several times to use vos with me ("vamos a tutearnos") and she nods but never, ever uses it with me. I guess for a servant to use "vos" is a bad thing but I am not her boss (Capt. Dave is and I doubt he is an "usted" kind of guy). I even told her I was "común y corriente" but she sticks sedulously with usted.

With Rosa María, if I would accidentally use an usted form like "Disculpe" instead of "Disculpame" when I belched, she would not like that at all and would say "Me alejás."

Aqualung? Andrés? Bueller? Bueller?

[Rock Harders]

Mongers,

"Castellano" is the name for the language that originated in the Castille why Leon region of Spain, and with the rise of the Castille region as the dominant force in the re-unification of Spain around the year 1500, "castellano" became the national language of Spain. In other parts of Spain the inhabitants speak other languages; in eastern Spain, they speak Catalan, in northwest Spain, Galician, etc, however ALL citizens of Spain today can speak Castellano, and thus it is viewed as the national language of Spain, and thus deemed "Spanish".

All other "spanish-speaking" parts of Latin American in fact speak "castellano", not catalan, galician or any other dialect. The "tu", which is the second person familiar, is the standard in most "spanish-speaking" countries, but not all. In Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, eastern Bolivia (camba) Cali (colombia) and parts of Central America the "vos" is used as the second person familiar in place of "tu". The difference between the two in common usage is that with the "vos" conjugated verb no stem-change is used, whereas with the "tu" conjugated verb a stem change does occur. For example "que queres?" (querer, vos form) and "que quieres?" (querer, tu form) Both in this case translated into English as "what do you want?".

The dialect spoken in Buenos Aires is sometimes referred to as "rioplatense" spanish, as in the spanish spoken in the Rio de la Plata region. This is about as far as my 21 credits of college Spanish got me.

Suerte,

Rock Harders

[Dickhead]

Hola Andrés. Araceli te manda saludos. I had a Spanish tutor here in Argentina who said, "A language is just a dialect that has an army" and I thought that made a lot of sense.

[Andres]

In the interest of getting the title of this thread correct, let me pose this question:

I understood (probably incorrectly) that two distinctive differences between Spanish and Castellano was the pronunciation of the double "LL" in that in Spanish the "LL is pronounced as "why" sound and in Castellano it is pronounced as an "s" sound, and also the use of "Vos" vs "Tu".

I have never heard the "LL" pronounced as a "S" or heard "Vos" used instead of "Tu' anywhere in any spanish country except Argentina, and I have often heard Argentinos refer to their language as "Castellano".

First, am I accurately identifying these two distinctions as being unique to the dialect spoken in Argentina?

Second, if the term "Castellano" is interchangeable with the term "Spanish:", then what is the correct name of the dialect spoken in Argentina?

Thanks,

Jackson

Technically, Spanish doesn't exist. The language hat you hear in Mexico, Argentina and most of Spain is castellano, which comes from the Castilla region of Spain, the one that imposed its crown, its customs and its language over the rest.

There are at least 3 other languages spoken in Spain: Catalan (kind of mixture between French and Castellano) Basque (an enigma for most linguists as of where it comes from) and Galizan (basically, a Portuguese dialect) Such salad of languages and dialects is pretty common in many European countries.

As far as I know, the differences among Castellano-speaking countries (vos-tu, pronounciation, etc) are not strong enough to qualify as different dialects. All of them are considered the same language with different "localisms". In fact, all of them take the Real Academia Española dictionary as the basic reference.

You will find the same usage of "vos" in Paraguay.

Having a very strong base of Spaniard immigration (most from Galiza but also from Catalonia and Euskadi) it's not a surprise that the Argentine society names Spanish as Castellano. That doesn't happen in many other Spanish-speaking countries.

Andres

[Dickhead]

Yeah, I understand I am sort of screwing myself by learning from uneducated people but what can I do? It is like learning English from the homeys in the hood. "Where the shitter at?" You ask that in the US and you will find out where the bathroom is, but it is a bit suboptimal.

I mean, I heard one gal I was traveling with ask, "¿Dónde es el baño?" and I said, "Um, shouldn't that be está?" and she said, "Es lo mismo." No, it's not.

That is why I try to rely on Aqualung and Andrés and Jo and such to correct my bad Spanish. I want to speak decent Spanish. I know it will always be my second language and I am too old to ever be bi-lingual but I want to get better. I really appreciate it. Gisell is well educated and helps me out a lot, and Flor her cohort seems to speak correctly also. Mariana, our maid, I don't know what her educational level is but she knows all the parts of speech and has been helping me with the plúscuamperfecto, which is very confusing to me.

I think I am getting better with the subjunctive, though. Roxana the Barber has a decent education (colegio de monjas) and speaks clearly and slowly. I told her to hold up one finger every time I should be using the subjunctive but don't and I think it is helping.

"Busco la mujer que quiera chupar la pija" (subjunctive because I don't know who this woman might be and she might not exist); I am looking for some woman, any woman, who likes to suck cock.

"Busco la mujer que quiere chupar la pija" (indicative, so there is definitely a woman that likes to suck cock and this is the woman to whom I refer); I am looking for a specific woman whom I already know, who likes to suck cock.

"Hablamos cuando vengas" (subjunctive because it refers to the future and for all I know you will never show up); we will talk when you get here.

"Dudo que sepas jugar ajadrez"; I doubt you know how to play chess so since there is doubt I use subjunctive.

"No dudo que sabés jugar ajadrez"; I don't doubt you know how to play chess, I believe you, I have seen you play it, so I use the indicative.

Roxana the Barber says I should focus on "triggers" for the subjunctive: doubt, uncertainty, inexistence, falseness. One time I said, "No soy estúpido" (this is arguable, of course) and she said, "Nunca dije que fueras" and a light went on. I would have expected, "Nunca dije que eras" or "Nunca dije que sos" but now I understand, I think. She never said I was stupid, so it is falseness, so it is subjunctive.

Is that right? Ojalá que hablara bien.

[Jackson]

In the interest of getting the title of this thread correct, let me pose this question:

I understood (probably incorrectly) that two distinctive differences between Spanish and Castellano was the pronunciation of the double "LL" in that in Spanish the "LL is pronounced as "y" sound and in Castellano it is pronounced as an "s" sound, and also the use of "Vos" vs "Tu".

I have never heard the "LL" pronounced as a "S" or heard "Vos" used instead of "Tu' anywhere in any spanish country except Argentina, and I have often heard Argentinos refer to their language as "Castellano".

First, am I accurately identifying these two distinctions as being unique to the dialect spoken in Argentina?

Second, if the term "Castellano" is interchangeable with the term "Spanish:", then what is the correct name of the dialect spoken in Argentina?

Thanks,

Jackson

[Aqualung]

That is some good stuff, Facundo. Excellent. Very interesting. Aqualung, I am sure you are right but my poorly educated friend says "Andate cagá" to me when she is pissed off. I have heard "cualquier colectivo me deja bien" and also "cualquier colectivo me deja igual." I know about "bondi" but I don't hear that. Could be a difference in age groups.

Apologies to Jackson for making him clean up this mess.

So I had a non-productive discussion about "hecha la ley" with Mariana. She explained that it was the past participle of hacer, which we already determined. She was very clear that it was not a noun, which we already knew. I asked her why the participle was before the noun and she said it was an idiomatic expression like "What's happening?" in English. She said "What's happening?" in English and it was just so cute. Mariana is very, very cute. When I first moved into the old mansion, Capt. Dave told me there was one rule: don't fuck Mariana, because pussy is readily available but good maids are hard to find.

And, I haven't. But I want to. The older she gets (must be about 38 by now) the more I want to fuck her. She is aging well, like a fine wine (like I would know anything about fine wines) or a sharp cheddar. A lot of you guys have met her. She is studying English at Wall Street and has really improved a lot. That is both good and bad because some of the shit we say around here is better left untranslated.

I have never heard anything but "ganar" as far as salary or wages goes, except for of course "pagar." I looked up "earn" in my dictionary and I got "ganar."

The problem with learning from people who haven't had access to much formal education is that they have it wrong so they are going to transmit it to you wrong.

The level of the chica's grammar is quite low. And the worst part is that those who don't know, don't even know they don't know so they happily and well intentionally pass on their mistakes.

And then you have those that are better educated and try to teach foreigners the "correct" way and not the way we talk in Argentina as they assume it to be wrong. For example teaching "Tu tienes" instead of "Vos tenes" which is absolutely correct in Argentine!

After all in the US when your car brakes down you open the hood and not the bonnet as you would in the UK and that is absolutely correct. That is if you have the slightest clue as to how to fix your car otherwise instead of correct it would be stupid.

So, next time a chica wants $500 for an hour tell her, like a good Argie, "Andá cagar y hacete culear en el orto por un burro!"

It certainly won't help to get her price down but she'll know she tried to overcharge the wrong gringo!

[Dickhead]

Your English is very good, especially your spelling. I can tell it isn't your first language but overall it is better than most of the native speakers who post on the board. Sometimes you use "the" when it isn't necessary, if you want a tip. English uses the definite article much less than Spanish.

[MCSE]

1- I insist that the "LL" double L should not be considered as a single character.

2- Also, "CH" c+h was considered when I was in school as a single charcter, but the royal accademy suppresed it a few years ago.

3- The "ñ" it's another one, like in Italian language could be replaced by "g+n", and the keyboards would be more global.

4- In latin-american countries the "z" and "s" are pronounced the same way.

But anyways, as long as it works for business and for getting laid, at least in my case, the language should be not considered too important, I NEVER aproved castellano, but I've been admitted to the Law school in a private University, in fact, I've pre-aproved "English" in the admission and that added extra credits. Sweet!

[Dickhead]

That is some good stuff, Facundo. Excellent. Very interesting. Aqualung, I am sure you are right but my poorly educated friend says "Andate cagá" to me when she is pissed off. I have heard "cualquier colectivo me deja bien" and also "cualquier colectivo me deja igual." I know about "bondi" but I don't hear that. Could be a difference in age groups.

Apologies to Jackson for making him clean up this mess.

So I had a non-productive discussion about "hecha la ley" with Mariana. She explained that it was the past participle of hacer, which we already determined. She was very clear that it was not a noun, which we already knew. I asked her why the participle was before the noun and she said it was an idiomatic expression like "What's happening?" in English. She said "What's happening?" in English and it was just so cute. Mariana is very, very cute. When I first moved into the old mansion, Capt. Dave told me there was one rule: don't fuck Mariana, because pussy is readily available but good maids are hard to find.

And, I haven't. But I want to. The older she gets (must be about 38 by now) the more I want to fuck her. She is aging well, like a fine wine (like I would know anything about fine wines) or a sharp cheddar. A lot of you guys have met her. She is studying English at Wall Street and has really improved a lot. That is both good and bad because some of the shit we say around here is better left untranslated.

I have never heard anything but "ganar" as far as salary or wages goes, except for of course "pagar." I looked up "earn" in my dictionary and I got "ganar."

[MCSE]

Castellano, is NOT the Spanish dialect spoken in Argentina. Castellano it's the official language spoken in Spain, as well as Argentina, Mexico, Colombia, Venezuela, and almost in the whole Latin American countries, sometimes as a second co-official language, with some exceptions as Brazil, Guyanas, Surinam, etc.

In fact, "spanish" language does not exist, or, it's not the correct name for the language, the confusion sometimes comes because the rules for the language are imposed by the "Royal Spaniard Accademy" and they re-write the "Diccionario de la Real Lengua Espanola". While it's true that the language first spreaded (originated in the region of Castilla, Spain) by the country, replacing the dialects (Euzkadi, Catala, etc) that in certain regions of Spain they keep speaking (the dialects as a co-official language as well)

The Dialect spoken in Buenos Aires is the "porteno" and some times the "lunfardo", lunfardo mostly findable in the tango lyrics.

[El Perro]

I find the differences between Anglo and Latin culture fascinating and wonder what role language plays in them. I'm not a linguest nor do I play one on television though it seems to me that the primary way we share our thoughts (speaking) would have a lot to do about how we construct our thoughts and habits.

DR-your curioisty has been shared by many for many years. I suggest you google "Whorf Hypothesis" if you want to delve into language and it's effect on thought (and subsequently, culture) Interesting reading, for as much of it as you can handle.

[Daddy Rulz]

I find the differences between Anglo and Latin culture fascinating and wonder what role language plays in them. I'm not a linguest nor do I play one on television though it seems to me that the primary way we share our thoughts (speaking) would have a lot to do about how we construct our thoughts and habits.

I'm wondering about a similar phrase in English, a few come to mind "By hook or by crook" and "Where there is a will there is a way" but neither of them really imply irrelevance of law. They imply breaking it but at the same time they assert it's validity by saying you may have to break it. Hecha la lay to me implies that the law is meaningless, that the sayer has the right to break the law. Any ideas for similar phrases in English.

Another word usage that seems to capture Latin sociological thought to me is not differentiating between "earning" and "winning" there is a word for earn (I don't remember what it is and whenever I have asked a Spanish speaker they had to think about it as well) In common usage "cuanto ganas?" works for both "what did you win at the casino?" and "how much do you get paid at your job?"

Obviously this is off thread, but not off topic of the last few days.

Edit: very cool I posted this in the "cost of living" thread with the disclaimer of it being off topic and must have posted it as Jax was making this new thread as it went online. I formally retract my apology as I am now on topic.