Dissecting the Spanish Language

[Tiny12]

A gringo must be very careful when he tries to translate an every day English phrase to Spanish. Your sad tale reminds me of the time I asked a very nice woman to dinner and she could not go. I thought I would be cute and say to her Tienes un mejor oferta? (Do you have a better offer? After she stopped crying, I asked what was wrong, and it turns out that I might as well have called her a working girl. After that, I made no more phrase translations unless I heard a native Spanish speaker use it first.

Tres3.

Tres, I'll one up you. I asked a good girl, a Mexican, "Te gusta la lengua?" I was trying to ask her if she liked the English language. She thought I'd suddenly switched topic and was asking if she liked cunnilingus. That was when I learned that even good Mexican girls curse like sailors.

As you know, lengua can mean "language" or "tongue". So she thought I was asking her if she liked the tongue.

[Tres3]

This is from the notebook of the trials and tribulations of being a non-Spanish speaker.

A few years ago after sex I was trying to tell a that she "had been a very bad girl that night" meaning she had been particularly naughty in the sex play. I said something to the effect of "esta chica muy mala. " The girl immediately freaked out. To which I replied that it mean something different in English.

This trip armed with my tablet and Google Translate, I said "You are having a rough night. " which was translated as "Usted est teniendo una mala noche. " Again it did not translate intention to her as I could tell her feelings were hurt.

A gringo must be very careful when he tries to translate an every day English phrase to Spanish. Your sad tale reminds me of the time I asked a very nice woman to dinner and she could not go. I thought I would be cute and say to her Tienes un mejor oferta? (Do you have a better offer? After she stopped crying, I asked what was wrong, and it turns out that I might as well have called her a working girl. After that, I made no more phrase translations unless I heard a native Spanish speaker use it first.

Tres3.

[Tiny12]

This is from the notebook of the trials and tribulations of being a non-Spanish speaker.

A few years ago after sex I was trying to tell a that she "had been a very bad girl that night" meaning she had been particularly naughty in the sex play. I said something to the effect of "esta chica muy mala. " The girl immediately freaked out. To which I replied that it mean something different in English.

This trip armed with my tablet and Google Translate, I said "You are having a rough night. " which was translated as "Usted est teniendo una mala noche. " Again it did not translate intention to her as I could tell her feelings were hurt.

Where's Dickhead when you need him? I haven't spent enough time in Argentina to know the vernacular, or even the "vos" thing, but "Eres una chica muy mala, muy sexy. Me gusta. " should get the idea across. You've got to say something to let her know that you don't think she's performing badly, angry, etc. I'm not sure whether "estar" would work here. I've heard malo used with "ser" to mean naughty, but never with estar.

For your second point, similarly follow up with something to let her know what you mean. Maybe "Espero que mejore," or I hope it gets better.

[Big Boss Man]

This is from the notebook of the trials and tribulations of being a non-Spanish speaker.

A few years ago after sex I was trying to tell a that she "had been a very bad girl that night" meaning she had been particularly naughty in the sex play. I said something to the effect of "esta chica muy mala. " The girl immediately freaked out. To which I replied that it mean something different in English.

This trip armed with my tablet and Google Translate, I said "You are having a rough night. " which was translated as "Usted est teniendo una mala noche. " Again it did not translate intention to her as I could tell her feelings were hurt.

[Aqualung]

Your comment about the second person thou in english is very interesting because I never knew exactly if it was used in old english or it had current use.

The use of thou is very limited. Certain sayings such as "holier than thou" come to mind. Also in certain areas of Yorkshire and similar you can still hear it being used occasionally. If you ever get a chance to watch some reruns of the sitcom "Last Of The Summer Wine" before Bill Owens' death, his character Compo Simmonite still uses this very quaint form of speech.

Vuestra merced is by far the most common form but 'vuesta merced' or even vuesta mercé come up now and again. As in this comment by Sancho Panza:

"Paréceme –respondió Sancho– que vuesa merced es como lo que dicen: "Dijo la sartéand a la caldera: Quítate allá ojinegra". Estáme reprehendiendo que no diga yo refranes, why ensártalos vuesa merced de dos en dos."

[Whiskas]

I think it was "vuestra merced" but yeah, originally used only with royalty. I did a research paper once on the history of "el voseo" and I remember about that history of usted. Oh yeah, and the US $ sign came from the Méxican peso, or to put it another way, México was using $ before the US was.

Indeed Vuestra Merced is the most utilized form, I recall reading a lines of Francisco de Quevedo who lived in the XVII century utilizing it. Vuesa Merced is not as widely utilized. Regarding de $ sign it has a very interesting history and of course we could talk a lot of mexican reales de a 8 which are known as "pieces of eight" in the American Colonies.

A link to one of my favorite articles of last month:

http://www.24hgold.com/english/news-...tributor=Perth+Mint+Blog

[Dickhead]

I think it was "vuestra merced" but yeah, originally used only with royalty. I did a research paper once on the history of "el voseo" and I remember about that history of usted. Oh yeah, and the US $ sign came from the Méxican peso, or to put it another way, México was using $ before the US was.

[Whiskas]

The formal and informal form of the second person is common to every language I know and, I suspect, to most languages in the World. Even English. Surprisingly enough 'you' is the formal form of 'thou' which has practically fallen into disuse.

The use of 'usted' in Spanish goes further than just showing respect to elders etc. I use it a lot when I want to keep a psychological barrier between me and whoever I'm talking to even young kids. When I say 'usted' to someone there can only be two ways out for the other person. One is to openly and aggressively disrespect me with all that it implies or the person can assume a passive, respectful position. .

Finally, languages are dynamic, living entities that adjust and modify due to popular usage. If this were not so we'd still be babbling in some IndoEuropean proto-language with a vocabulary of about 50 utterings to communicate our basic needs and absolutely unable to communicate or to share experiences on a forum like this.

Your comment about the second person thou in english is very interesting because I never knew exactly if it was used in old english or it had current use.

Speaking about the spanish usted you might find interesting to know that its use was intended to adress persons who had no titles of nobility in Spain centuries ago. Originally it was not used as "usted" but as "Vuesa Merced" which literally means "Your mercy", then it evolved into Vuested or Vusted and finally as the current form Usted. It has an equivalent in the french "vous" in opposition to "toi".

I understand that it might be too impersonal or even distant in Argentina, but there was a time when it was very common in virtually every spanish speeaking nation. To give you an example a deceased aunt who was a fine writer told me many years ago that when she married she talked to her husband 2 or 3 years (after their marriage) using the usted with him.

At the beggining of the XX century there was virtually no other way of talking than using the usted, with your parents, uncles, grandparents, teachers, etc. It was a must. God forbid you would talk to your father using tú, he would nearly kill you, literally. Me being a little of "Old guard type of guy" still talk to my teachers who are nearly my age using usted as a sign of respect.

In many places if you know somebody and start using tú with them they might feel offended because especially in the provinces it is disrispectful, I actually remember somebody telling another person whom he just met,"Sir, as far as I remember I am not fucking anybody in your family and certainly you are not fucking my sister so don't use the tú on me". I've met some colombian ladies and they use the usted very much, even in bed which is kind of funny to me.

As you probably know in México the greatest insult we can say is "Chinga tu madre" (fuck your mother) and I was listening to this comedian saying: "Mire cabron, ya me harté de usted, chingue usted a su madre (Look bastard, I am fed up of you fuck your mother)" to which the other guy replied "No me falte al respeto (Don't disrispect me)" and the first one says "Ah, no, no, no, chingue USTED a su madre, pero fíjese bien le estoy hablando de usted (No, no, no, fuck YOUR mother as in USTED, but look closely I am respectful because I am using usted).

Some other day we can speak a lot about our very special concept of respect in México, as you can see. Cheers!

[Dickhead]

Yes, the distance thing is important. I remember once I used the usted form with Rosa María; it was an imperative and I got confused. She repeated the word and said 'me alejás, ' VERY reproachfully. It took me a few seconds to realize what I had done. This is why I won't use 'tu' with my profesora in her office, even though she has invited me to do so. Now to not do so after being invited to could be insulting, so I had to explain to her that I did not want to slip up and use 'tu' with her in the classroom. She said it would not be a big deal if I did and I just said, 'No es correcto' and that was that. Really, she is the only one I have around to use usted with so that is another reason. I don't use usted with my much younger classmates but they sometimes use it with me and when I say, 'Vamos a tutearnos, ' sometimes they don't know what I mean, which is kind of scary at this level.

[Daddy Rulz]

The formal and informal form of the second person is common to every language I know and, I suspect, to most languages in the World. Even English. Surprisingly enough 'you' is the formal form of 'thou' which has practically fallen into disuse.

The use of 'usted' in Spanish goes further than just showing respect to elders etc. I use it a lot when I want to keep a psychological barrier between me and whoever I'm talking to even young kids. When I say 'usted' to someone there can only be two ways out for the other person. One is to openly and aggressively disrespect me with all that it implies or the person can assume a passive, respectful position.

As for instant text language, this is also not exclusive to Argentine chicas. It's a phenomenon of this instant (un) communication World we live in. English text messages are full of things like before U Km (before you came). Try figuring that one out if your not a native speaker.

I don't see how anyone can be surprised that a meagrely educated working girl has spelling or grammatical errors when many AP members write atrociously. Of course, booze and Jackson's correction software has a lot to do with impairing our posts! Hahahaha

Finally, languages are dynamic, living entities that adjust and modify due to popular usage. If this were not so we'd still be babbling in some IndoEuropean proto-language with a vocabulary of about 50 utterings to communicate our basic needs and absolutely unable to communicate or to share experiences on a forum like this.

What he said

[Aqualung]

The formal and informal form of the second person is common to every language I know and, I suspect, to most languages in the World. Even English. Surprisingly enough 'you' is the formal form of 'thou' which has practically fallen into disuse.

The use of 'usted' in Spanish goes further than just showing respect to elders etc. I use it a lot when I want to keep a psychological barrier between me and whoever I'm talking to even young kids. When I say 'usted' to someone there can only be two ways out for the other person. One is to openly and aggressively disrespect me with all that it implies or the person can assume a passive, respectful position.

As for instant text language, this is also not exclusive to Argentine chicas. It's a phenomenon of this instant (un) communication World we live in. English text messages are full of things like B 4 U Km (before you came). Try figuring that one out if your not a native speaker.

I don't see how anyone can be surprised that a meagerly educated working girl has spelling or grammatical errors when many AP members write atrociously. Of course, booze and Jackson's correction software has a lot to do with impairing our posts! Hahahaha

Finally, languages are dynamic, living entities that adjust and modify due to popular usage. If this were not so we'd still be babbling in some IndoEuropean proto-language with a vocabulary of about 50 utterings to communicate our basic needs and absolutely unable to communicate or to share experiences on a forum like this.

[Wild Walleye]

I believe this is a classic case of 'Maslow's Hammer': if all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. It can be a bit limiting. But I doubt you put much stock in sociology.

Does that hammer come with a sickle? (tongue in cheek)


Considering my primary need for Spanish, the hammer and nail metaphor is quite appropriate.

[Dickhead]

Well, if nothing else, the vosotros commands are sure easy. Drop the r from the infinitive and replace with d. End of story. No irregular ones. The rest of the conjugations are tongue twisters.

[El Queso]

.Plus we had to learn all the vosotros conjugations, pronouns, etc, which are only used in Spain. That did come in handy many years later.

Yeah, we learned those forms as well, but I think only over a week or two during the first year, and never visited them again. She told us that the form was never used any more, and I was quite surprised to learn later in my life that it is indeed used in Spain.

[El Queso]

If I got to the hippodromo and bet on the correct horse I would shout gano! I won. If somebody asked me how much I got paid at my job I would say gano blah. Nuff said

Yep.

I have one Argentino friend who I would consider speaks fluent English. Even then, when he talks about his salary, he says "I win x per month" instead of "I earn x per month."