Dissecting the Spanish Language

[Dickhead]

Here is what I know about usted versus tu. Usted is much more commonly used in northern Argentina, places like Salta and Corrientes. A lot parents there insists their kids address them as usted (a chaqueña said she would get a whipping for using tu) , which I have never seen or heard in Buenos Aires. In some parts of Colombia (Márquez discusses this; he is from a place near Cartagena) everything gets stood on its head and tu is used from the first meeting, and usted must be earned as a measure of respect. I recommend reading Márquez for those interested in moving from a high intermediate level to something more advanced. I have asked a lot of profs about usted versus tu and it varies geographically, with social class, and over time (we are in a bit of an informal cultural phase right now). Early on, I was taught 'when in doubt, use usted' and I did that for a long time. Then in BA I almost never used usted. Now I use usted with anyone significantly older than me (so hardly ever) or someone in a position of authority like a cop. If I am in some area and I violate the norm for usted, I really don't give a fuck any more. I mean, it is important but it is impossible to tell what is appropriate where. By the time I figure it out I have moved on.

But for sure we used usted with our teachers in high school and in college, always. The ninth grade teacher would just stare at you if you used 'tu' with her. Plus we had to learn all the vosotros conjugations, pronouns, etc, which are only used in Spain. That did come in handy many years later.

[Daddy Rulz]

If I got to the hippodromo and bet on the correct horse I would shout gano! I won. If somebody asked me how much I got paid at my job I would say gano blah. Nuff said

[El Queso]

Ever notice how a chica can send a three page e-mail without ever using commas, or periods, or pariagraphs? Ever wonder why that is? Go read these latino authors. They write sentences that go on for three pages. Get to the fucking point for Christ's sakes. The whole language is designed in a redundant and repetitive manner, such with the 'echo effect' pronouns. Very inefficient yet very poetic. I kind of like it but it drives me nuts, which is kind of how I feel about Latin America in general, and Spain.

Actually, I doubt many of the chicas read much of anything but their own SMSs and those that are sent to them.

However, I don't think that was your main point (as far as whether they get their indirectness from reading, as opposed to the culture itself) , and I totally agree with you about the indirectness of the Spanish language and Latin culture.

I took a couple of years of Spanish in high school some 30+ years ago (along with 4 years of Latin. 2 in high school and 2 in college) , and spent a number of years working with Mexicans on labor crews during school summers and later out in the real world. However, in addition to being a young punk during those times, and besides most of those I had (admittedly limited) conversations with back then didn't really allow me to see the difference in how thinking, understanding and acting is affected by culture / language (which comes first?).

Since I moved here and now live about 85% of my life without any English speaking whatsoever (my wife and her family do not speak English) , I have had to up my skills related to Spanish and am much more able to make observations about the link between the language and the culture (still not knowing which is the egg and whether that comes first).

Some time ago I had made mention of exactly this round-aboutedness in the language and the culture to some buddies while we were sitting around bullshitting. To me, this is a sign of what I've said many times. There is no "human" nature when learning how to deal with environment and each other. We learn everything we are, in my opinion, from the culture and language in which we grow up (and of course, more specifically, who raised us). Granted, I've never formally studied human nature, but 50 years, wide traveling, and fluency in at least another language gives me some insight (faulty to others, or not).

In Spanish, there's a whole set of verb conjugations and pronouns to be used in formal situations between one person and another (second-person singular forms). I learned it in school, but never really used it. The Mexicans I was dealing with way back when (and they weren't exactly educated. At all: I remember trying to talk to them about Latin and translating Caesar when I was in high school and I couldn't get past getting them to understand what Latin was!) used nothing but the informal "tu" second person conjugations and pronouns. However, on those occasions when the girls are watching a Mexican novela here and I sit for a moment and watch (mostly painful!) , almost completely the "usted" form is used, even when it seems to me that the two people talking are well-known to each other.

Here,"vos" with the second person informal verb conjugations seem to be used much, much more than the formal "usted." It seems like argentinos mostly got rid of that when talking amongst themselves and strangers. Unless you are perceived in some way of being at a higher station in life (I. E, not an unknown person or acquaintance or formal situation only).

For example, with just about anyone on the street, I have conversations in informal tone. But my portero, or often (though not always!) a clerk in the store will use the formal form.

The other day I was talking to my sister-in-law, who was telling me about a particularly bitchy math professor she has. She was trying to ask her something and the teacher was giving her a hard time. My sister-in-law was recounting what she said to the teacher directly: "le pregunté, porque la verdad no entiendo" (I asked you because I really don't understand). I've never actually heard her use the formal form before and on asking her about that specifically she said,"yeah, we use it with most of our professors because it's more formal and that's what they expect."

What occurred to me after some time was that the second person singular formal form was the same as the third person singular. The quote from my sister-in-law, translated in English without the context of "usted" would be like saying "I asked her because I don't really understand" (but saying that directly to the teacher, not recounting to me). I can imagine a slightly downcast look and not meeting the eyes of the teacher directly in this context as well.

So I started wondering some time ago about the origin of this. It seemed awfully coincidental to me that the formal second person singular form was the same as the third person singular form. Seems to me that this has a lot to do with the more rigid forms between, say, royalty and "common folk" in times past in Spanish culture. I know English has had its forms between the two and these days it is mostly a manners thing. But to me, just this one thing may say a lot about Latin culture and the thinking and acting of individuals in society.

I've often said that latin culture, depending on what country, region, etc, (and I see this extremely strongly in Paraguay between "upper" and "lower" class people) , that there exists a sort of twisted form of feudalism to this day. Almost entirely without any concept of "noblese oblige."

I was amazed, on becoming (at least mostly) fluent in Spanish at the insight into the culture (not just what I'm talking about related to the verb forms, and not just Argentine culture, which is a whole other depth that I've not achieved to a great extent yet) that I received from that ability. A lot of guys who come here and don't speak Spanish well (I. E, not just a few words and "get by") and can't have real conversations with the people, don't understand the people they're talking to on a more basic level. They have no different frame of reference because they can't communicate with them on the level that allows them to see and understand the differences. It may not help reduce frustrations, but it sure as hell can reduce the basic misunderstanding, perhaps, of "why" and "what."

As far as chicas go (as far as SMS messages at least) , though. That's an entirely different world.

"noce xque hiso m amiga x estupedes."

A part of a message recently received by my wife and she had to show me how poorly her friend writes.

[Dickhead]

For me it is often a problem that the chicas text and e-mail without regard to punctuation, accent marks, question marks, etc. I dreamt up some exaggerated examples:

Busco una mujer que tenga por lo menos dieciocho años = I am looking for a woman who is at least eighteen years old.

Busco una mujer que tenga por lo menos dieciocho anos = I am looking for a woman with at least eighteen assholes.

Nos encontramos en calle Salguero = let's meet near the Jumbo in Palermo.

Nos encontramos en calle Salgüero = let's meet I forget where but a completely different street. You won't be there and it will be your fault because for sure the chica will not know the difference.

Y el hecho de que nunca usen ni comas ni puntos me moleste y las frases sigan hasta que me parezcan párrafos y la literatura ande lo mismo.

Ever notice how a chica can send a three page e-mail without ever using commas, or periods, or paragraphs? Ever wonder why that is? Go read these latino authors. They write sentences that go on for three pages. Get to the fucking point for Christ's sakes. The whole language is designed in a redundant and repetitive manner, such with the 'echo effect' pronouns. Very inefficient yet very poetic. I kind of like it but it drives me nuts, which is kind of how I feel about Latin America in general, and Spain.

[Mpexy]

¿No te animas? ' It's slightly more than "wouldn't you like?" and a little less than "wouldn't you dare?" Use, for example: You ask a girl to come to your place. ¿Queres venir a mi casa? And she is not in the mood so she answers "¿No te animas a venir a mi casa?" (Don't you fancy coming to mine?)

It's perfectly correct Spanish by the way.

"Guerra" means war and it's very commonly used as a synonym for sex. This comes from the saying in Spanish "Cuando la mujer se pinta, como el indio, quiere guerra"."When a woman puts on make up (war paint) , like an Indian, she wants war" (to put on make up or war paint are both "pintarse" in Spanish).

So "guerra" is used to indicate a more physical, hot, passionate sex. But be careful, it doesn't necessarily mean violent sex.

Thanks Aqualung. Makes perfect sense in context now.

Deleted the text but it started out "no te animas." with a period at end so thought that was the whole sentence. Then something about call me and we'll have a good time. She put a period after no te animas so guess that was either typo or mistaken grammar. From you translation sounds like she was texting to say 'wouldn't you like to call me and we'll have a good time'

[Dickhead]

I miss all of those subtleties.

Sometimes when lacking the skills, one is best served with a blunt instrument.

I believe this is a classic case of 'Maslow's Hammer': if all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. It can be a bit limiting. But I doubt you put much stock in sociology.

[Wild Walleye]

I miss all of those subtleties.

Sometimes when lacking the skills, one is best served with a blunt instrument.

[Dickhead]

Spanish is a much more florid (and round about) language than English. It's very easy for someone learning Spanish to sound rude or abrupt

Sandra Cisneros has a hilarious scene in her novel, Caramelo, where one Méxican spills soup on the other. The process of elaborately apologizing and elaborately forgiving goes on for a couple of pages.

[Aqualung]

Hahaha! Very good one, actually sounds much like my own style but probably I would have said: "Disculpe señorita, sería usted tan amable en permitirme practicar el fino why exquisito arte del bukkake en sus protuberancias pectorales que me recuerdan el Fuji-Yama o mejor aúand, me haría el favor de recibir unas cuantas eyaculaciones en su cavidad bucal para nutrirse con ellas una vez que las haya deglutido? De antemano muy agradecido."

Tr: "Excuse me young lady would you be so kind in allowing me to practice the exquisite art of bukkake in your breasts both of which remind me of Fuji Yama or even better, would you please receive a few ejaculations in your mouth so you can nourish yourself once you swallow. Thanks a lot beforehand".

Hahahaha, yes, that's even better but jokes aside (and exaggerations) , Spanish is a much more florid (and round about) language than English. It's very easy for someone learning Spanish to sound rude or abrupt when using phrases that would be perfectly correct in English. Especially when writing letters. Take for example:

Estimado Señor

De mi mayor consideración. Tengo Ud la amabilidad de concederme.

Dear Sr.

Could you give me.

To have said

Estimado Sr.

Puede darme.

If you are not familiar with the person would be taken as being uncouth or rude.

[Aqualung]

Yeah, that makes sense. I'd be using 'atreverse' and not 'animarse' there, but then my Spanish is becoming more mexicanized at this point. I once heard 'animarse' in this context: 'Iba a pedirte prestarme plata pero no me animaba. ' I was going to ask you for a loan but I couldn't work up the nerve.

Exactly. That is a perfect example. 'Animarse' is much more common in BA than 'Atreverse' while in most of the provinces it's the other way and, of course, in all the other Spanish speaking countries.

[Dickhead]

I added the punctuation marks as it is mostly used that way but no exclusively. Example."Vos no te animas a caminar solo por la calle de noche.". You don't dare to walk alone on the street at night. Here, of course, the translation would only be "Don't dare"

Yeah, that makes sense. I'd be using 'atreverse' and not 'animarse' there, but then my Spanish is becoming more mexicanized at this point. I once heard 'animarse' in this context: 'Iba a pedirte prestarme plata pero no me animaba. ' I was going to ask you for a loan but I couldn't work up the nerve.

[Whiskas]

"Discúlpeme señorita por mi atrevimiento pero deseo saber si al momento de mi eyeculacióand puedo proceder a depositar mi esperma en su boca. ¿O tiene usted algúand inconveniente en que prosiga con dicha práctica?"

WW, That should definitely set the rules clear thus preventing you from suffering physical damage at that very vulnerable moment.

Hahaha! Very good one, actually sounds much like my own style but probably I would have said: "Disculpe señorita, sería usted tan amable en permitirme practicar el fino why exquisito arte del bukkake en sus protuberancias pectorales que me recuerdan el Fuji-Yama o mejor aúand, me haría el favor de recibir unas cuantas eyaculaciones en su cavidad bucal para nutrirse con ellas una vez que las haya deglutido? De antemano muy agradecido."

Tr: "Excuse me young lady would you be so kind in allowing me to practice the exquisite art of bukkake in your breasts both of which remind me of Fuji Yama or even better, would you please receive a few ejaculations in your mouth so you can nourish yourself once you swallow. Thanks a lot beforehand".

[Daddy Rulz]

Ok, but what was presented was not a question, but a statement. 'No te animas' as a STATEMENT is not correct under most circumstances. If anything it would be a command and so 'No te animes.' Don't get all worked up. So the OP said he received 'no te animas' as a text, so the chica probably left out the puntas de interrogación. It does make perfect sense to me as a question: 'Don't you want to? ' 'Doesn't it turn you on?'

I'm familiar with the context of the conversation and should have caught that.

[Daddy Rulz]

"Discúlpeme señorita por mi atrevimiento pero deseo saber si al momento de mi eyeculacióand puedo proceder a depositar mi esperma en su boca. ¿O tiene usted algúand inconveniente en que prosiga con dicha práctica?"

WW, That should definitely set the rules clear thus preventing you from suffering physical damage at that very vulnerable moment.

Thanks Aqualung, the only problem with your posts is they are too god damned few and far between! Thank you, I don't think I've ever seen that crude question put forth in such an elegant manner before. I'm making a flash card.

[Aqualung]

"Discúlpeme señorita por mi atrevimiento pero deseo saber si al momento de mi eyeculación puedo proceder a depositar mi esperma en su boca. ¿O tiene usted algún inconveniente en que prosiga con dicha práctica?"

WW, That should definitely set the rules clear thus preventing you from suffering physical damage at that very vulnerable moment.