Corruption in Argentina

[Andres]

Perhaps the forced resettlement of a few thousand people is a political possibility in Argentina but I don't think it is in the UK. It might have been barely possible before the war but the lives lost in the war it would make it impossible now. Maybe in 50 years.

Sure.

The UK has the wealth to indulge in hobbies that Argentina cannot afford.

Personally, I don't have any problem about them spending money there. In any case, that doesn't discourage Argentina on the sovereignty claim.

Andres

[Jackson]

What are you the police of the world?

Somebody has to do it, and by default the Americans are the only people with the courage to do the job.

One thing for certain, it's not going to be the Argentina military, because they couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

Thanks,

Jackson

[Fernando22]

You guys are a funny bunch.

No argies give a fuck what you gringos may think about corruption, what do you think they care what you can say about Falkands war?

What are you the police of the world?

[Easy Go]

If I remember correctly there is an agreement that only countries in the southern hemisphere are allowed to have a base in Antarctica. That could also be a reason for the Brits to keep control of the Malvinas.

Pretty much anybody can have a base in Antarctica that is willing to pay the money to operate it. Over 30 countries have permanent bases including many European countries. There are a number of disputed territorial claims but the US and most other countries don't recognize them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._in_Antarctica

[Fernando22]

Both Mrts. Tatcher and Galtieri fell down after the war.

Anyway reading through most of this post, saved two guys, no locals I see that worry much about what mongers here can say about corruption in Argentina.

Seems like they are mocking you all instead.

We duchts don't care a shit about it.

Just as long as we can fuck the beautiful local women, its O. K. For we.

[Seaman]

If I remember correctly there is an agreement that only countries in the southern hemisphere are allowed to have a base in Antarctica. That could also be a reason for the Brits to keep control of the Malvinas.

I have talked to people who have been involved in the British side of the conflict (the guy who actually pushed the button which fired the torpedo which sank the Belgrano) and with people close to the military government here in Argentina. If you listen to both you hear more or less the same story. It was a "prearranged" war to crank up political support on both sides. But.... Nobody expected that the loss of lives would be as high as it got in the end.

But in view of this thread, was the Malvinas war also a case of corruption on Argentina?

[Easy Go]

Perhaps the forced resettlement of a few thousand people is a political possibility in Argentina but I don't think it is in the UK. It might have been barely possible before the war but the lives lost in the war it would make it impossible now. Maybe in 50 years.

The UK has the wealth to indulge in hobbies that Argentina cannot afford.

[MCSE]

I don't agree with MCSE over a lot of issues, but I think he is pretty spot on here. Andres don't you agree?

I'm always right DR, the thing is you don't always realize. (just kidding)

[Andres]

The Brits support the islands because the people living on it are their countrymen. If there had been no islanders, I doubt there would have been a war. Although the actions of other countries are notoriously hard to predict (just ask Georgia)

The support for the islanders is just an excuse. It would be cheaper for the UK to move islanders elsewhere (they don't make it even a small town anywhere else) than to keep such an infrastructure for only a couple thousand people, and specially considering all the negotiations going through before 1982.

I'm not denying that it's a national pride issue. I'm arguing that Argentina needs to learn to take actions based on national interest rather than national pride so that actions benefit rather than hurt the country.

They are just like mongers in that they are letting the little head rather than the big head do the thinking.

That argument applies to both sides.

Andres

[Easy Go]

It's not. In fact, both arguments apply to UK (to a much lesser degree) and Argentina. Otherwise, what great advantage get the Brits by supporting the islands?

You have to read about the Beagle channel conflict between Chile and Argentina in 1978, which got very, very close to war. You will find that such a mess was triggered by the soverignty claims over 3 "rocks" (Picton, Nueva and Lennox islands) Under that light, the Malvinas as a national pride issue fits.

Andres

The Brits support the islands because the people living on it are their countrymen. If there had been no islanders, I doubt there would have been a war. Although the actions of other countries are notoriously hard to predict (just ask Georgia)

I'm not denying that it's a national pride issue. I'm arguing that Argentina needs to learn to take actions based on national interest rather than national pride so that actions benefit rather than hurt the country.

They are just like mongers in that they are letting the little head rather than the big head do the thinking.

[Andres]

Primarily in the ease of doing business, dumb regulation, the banking systems and ease of moving capital in and out.

I'm not very sure about it. Chile, even under Pinochet, put restrictions to the withdrawal of foreign investments in order to avoid financial speculation. Brazil, recently, banned export of rice to control the domestic rice price.

I have a little story. One of my business adventures in Argentina involved becoming a North American distibutor for a popular Argenitne food product.

My partner with 30 years in the food business, takes samples to a number of supermarket groups with the intention of the Argentine line becoming a house brand. Every place loved the product and found the price aceptable, but did not want to do business with Argentina. Two groups actually asked me if we could truck the product to Chile and put a lable "from Chile" on the jars. When the Argentine producer would not work through Chile, two supermarkets would only take the products on consignment. This made it impossible to factor the debts and the Argentines could not borrow against the consigned good and eventually killed any chance of being in major supermarket groups.

Even little Uruguay exports more beef than Argentina.

Brazil changed their banking laws to ease mortgage forclosures ie you don't pay and you are thrown out of the house within six months. There are now mortgages avaiable in Brazil. The Argentine banking system is very, very difficult combined with peronists protections of squatters on land equals almost no mortages in Argentina[there are payment plans from developers and limited government programs]

It's easier to import food from Chile, among other things because it has a FTA with the US. However, it can't be possible that Argentina beats export figures year after year ans still a majority not willing to buy Argentine products.

Banking is a lame sector in Argentina, I agree, but unfortunately people fear both private and public banking, the former because of its insolvency proven on Dec. 2001 and the latter because of Govt abuse if the system ever becomes nationalized and monopolistic.

Andres

[Andres]

A matter of national pride? Asserting sovereignty over some desolate islands in the middle of nowhere with negative economic value that have only brought pain and suffering to the people of Argentina? That's really messed up.

It's not. In fact, both arguments apply to UK (to a much lesser degree) and Argentina. Otherwise, what great advantage get the Brits by supporting the islands?

You have to read about the Beagle channel conflict between Chile and Argentina in 1978, which got very, very close to war. You will find that such a mess was triggered by the soverignty claims over 3 "rocks" (Picton, Nueva and Lennox islands) Under that light, the Malvinas as a national pride issue fits.

Andres

[Easy Go]

Argento,

Which number did you take from the Economist, raw GDP per capita or the one that is normalized for "purchasing power parity"? I checked Britain and the ppp number matches the CIA number. The same holds true for Brazil, Chile, and Argentina. If you want to read about ppp, here's a reference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity

It's just a normalization designed to reflect differences in the cost of living is between countries. Ppp vs raw doesn't make much difference for the purpose of this discussion. Chile and Argentina are similar, Brazil trails, and all three fall somewhere between Africa and Europe.

[Daddy Rulz]

I don't agree with MCSE over a lot of issues, but I think he is pretty spot on here. Andres don't you agree? It really illustrates the layers of corruption you would have to work through in order to start any kind of serious manufacturing company and why that is nearly impossible.

[MCSE]

"Assuming that corruption is as rampant in the USA as it is in Argentina, then what is the reason, given essentially the same natural resources and the same immigrant population over essentially the same period of time, did the USA build the world's strongest economy while Argentine lurches from one economic collapse to another?"

Jackson

Let me provide my theory about this fascinating issue:

We are stand in 2008.

USA it's one of the powerful countries in the world, while Argentina it's just surviving. In terms that affect people, however, quality of life, it's not that good either for low-middle class in Argentina nor for lower middle class in the USA. That's just a comment.

But, how, if both countries were discovered at the same time, one developed a lot, and others (Mexico, Colombia, Peru, Bolivia, etc) are poor countries?

I would say that USA development comes after WW I, and skyrocketed after WW II. Before those wars, immigrants from Europe, immigrated to Argentina and the USA with the same hope. Buenos Aires and NYC had a similar development before 1914, you can see that in the architecture.

Before that, Spaniards only wanted to get rich and get back to Europe with gold and stuff, while the east coast in the US was Colonized seriously. There is the first difference, in the US were more skilled people, while in the rest of the Americas, only thieves and warriors, ignorant people.

The more skilled people, the more possibilities to create added value. The more added value, the best possibilities to generate a strong economy. The more strong economy, the more stability for new investments. Invertors don't want to lose their efforts. The USA had resources as for entering to the WW II while Argentina was too far away, the phisical proximity to Europe made possible the USA participation in the WW II, and the distance made possible it's population to get apart of the war. While European countries took several years to get recovered, the USA had already a strong economy. Capitals moved to the USA instead of Europe or south America, skilled people, labour and a big added value, that makes a stronger economy. While countries like chile takes the copper from the soil and export to the USA, the USA buy that copper and export refrigerators, cars, electronics, helicopters, etc.

We are now in 2008, and if I wanted to start a highly added value company (let's say a highly tecnology helicoper manufacturing factory) and if I have 2 options: USA or Argentina:

In the USA I will find thousands of experienced engineers, Americans, and immigrants, and probably even Argentine engineers, and they will cost more money per hour, perhaps three times more than in Argentina, but those guys will work overtime if required, and they must go home after work and start back the next day.

In Argentina, my engineers will not have a clue, since their last job was as a taxi driver, they will chat each other about girls the whole day and they will end the day celebrating at hook they finally got a job as engineers, the very next day they will be so happy about last night they brains will be memorizing that blow job from Catalina at hook.

In the US I would hire an assistant too, she is so fat and stressed and the arrasement laws are so respected that no one will ever thing about dating the assistant.

In Argentina, the girl is so hot that I will have to dedicate half of the working day to keep the engineers away from her and spend 3 hours at the bulo fucking the assistant.

When importing the helicopter engine I'll have to bribe the customs, otherwise the taxes are so high that only in taxes I'll have to spend more money than the whole helicopter cost.

I'll need providers for the bombs, the electronic controls, assembly software, and the good ones are definetly not in Argentina, but in Italy, Germany, Japan, and I'll have to import those items with a high cost.

I can only paint the helicopter in Argentina (good news, eh! But the painter will charge me more than in the US since he only paints cars, and he will say: what a great job! This is the opportunity of my life! I will charge this bastard as much as I want and finance my vacation to Mar del Plata this year.

For sure the helicopter will be painted after his return from Mar del Plata vacation. Impossible from December to March.

Probably in march, government says: the area where your factory is, it's now only residencial, you have 90 days to move the factory away.

That if the government does not declares a financial crisis, and Argentina does not wins the soccer world coup, that could delay my project for another 90 days.

If I need financing for my project, banks will only finance (in Argentina) a 10% , if I need a high speed internet connection, I'll be paying more than in the US for a reliable one, and as the factory it's located outside of the capital federal, I'll have like 80% running connection, plus, villeros steal the cables, the power and light cables, if I want to move heavy equippment there are just 2 companies, and they only work 3 days per week Monday, Thursday and saturdays, ok, next Monday, no way, it's hollyday the dead of San Martin, The Flag day, the faggots parade, etc.

Eventually, once the project is finished, I will have to pay retenciones for exporting, and when I show my clients the helicopter with an "industria argentina" tag, they will say: what the hell, an argentine helicopter! We will see that next year.