Buying a Used Car

[Cordoba Dan]

So I was reading the Clarin and perusing the classifieds. There was mention of the place on Cuba being under new management but when I stopped by they had one chica who was a 5 or 6. What really got my attention was they multi page write up on the Toyota Prius. They hype it to the sky not unlike American reviews and then list an Argie price of 49,700 and I'm thinking, for a 2010 Prius, thats better than the states! Then really starts clicking in and I double check and yes, it says dolares. WTF. 50G for a tech tweeked Corrolla? No wonder I haven't seen any generation Prius in BA.

[Capn Rick]

Saludos.

We bought this 1999 BMW R1100S from a friend of mine who got it from a cop auction in Miami. I plan to try to sell it as soon as it is legal to do so. I apologize if there is a thread in another sector of the forum I did not see.

I plan to put the vehicle nationalization saga on the site if I can figure out where to put it. It might be useful to mongers planning to get a permanant residency. The plan is to finish up the nationalization of the bike by the end of November and put it up for sale in CraigsList, etc asking USD19,000. I will offer it to any monger that is interested at USD14,000.

It had only 16k miles on the clock and was everything you would expect of a 1100cc motor on a light frame as far as performance. As you can see from the mileage, it was in a police impound lot for several years, and has finish issues as a result. The battery was replaced with a brand new BMW gel unit before it left Miami. It is at a mechanic's shop in BsAs (I am in MarDel) because the bike was not palleted properly for the shipment and fell over on my car. In addition to doing damage to the car, the bike had some paint damage, turn indicators and a mirror broken. I haven't seen the bike since we opened the container and removed / inspected / photographed it. I understand the parts finally came in and it is ready.

My question comes from hearing a rumor that one could not sell a vehicle after bringing it in as part of the immigration package. Since we are using the immigration package to get the car nationalized without import duty and will pay 80% of the value of the bike as import duty, shouldn't it be OK to sell the bike? I believe the restriction against selling the imported vehicle for two years applies only to the duty free vehicle, no?

Suerte

[El Queso]

El Queso,

When is the house warming party? I guess I will be out of here by then. However, it will be great to have a couple of beers and a few laughs and carry our sweet discussion on car purchase in Argentina, face to face out of the forum.;-)

Unfortunately Captain, it looks like I won't move in until October 15. Given the other stuff I have going on in my life right now, I probably won't have a house warming party until around the 1st week of November.

If I remember correctly, you're leaving around the 10th of October, right?

However, Casa Bar is waiting

[Aqualung]

Aqualung, thanks man, I'm going to check that out!

Let us know what came of it. Maybe it will be helpful to others in the future.

If you google "llaves Renault Megane" you'll find thee are a few other locksmiths that offer their services. Most promise "in the day service". However long it takes it won't be anywhere near what the official agent said and I bet the price won't be any where near that either.

Very few Argentines would buy parts or do their repairs at official agents - only while the car is still under warranty - because they charge ridiculous prices. Find a good mechanic near your home and have him always do the work on your car. (Ask the remiseros of your barrio to recommend a good one)

You have bought a decent enough car that will take you from A to B for a fraction of the price of a new one so don't go spending unnecessary amounts on repairs or parts.

[Member #3320]

Captain, we'll make sure we have a couple of beers and a few laughs before you get out of here

El Queso,

When is the house warming party? I guess I will be out of here by then. However, it will be great to have a couple of beers and a few laughs and carry our sweet discussion on car purchase in Argentina, face to face out of the forum.;-)

[El Queso]

BadMan you're absolutely right. That's what I meant by going to a place I didn't want to go - too easy to get there and let's look at some nice tits instead!

Aqualung, thanks man, I'm going to check that out!

Captain, we'll make sure we have a couple of beers and a few laughs before you get out of here

[Aqualung]

Hi Queso - try here:

http://www.llavesdeautos.com.ar/llav...s_renault.html

[BadMan]

Come on guys.

This really isn't that serious.

We are arguing about buying cars here?

All I got to say is.

[El Queso]

Well, I almost didn't reply to your last reply Captain, but I felt like I had to because you seem to have a couple of misconceptions. I hate to leave things unstated, particularly where someone may come in and look at this in a month or more and wonder what the deal was.

First, I didn't say that your comments were INTENDED to make me feel bad, I said your comment "really only serves to make me feel bad about my inabiliity to enjoy what the 'upper class' can enjoy." I didn't say that your comment was accurate or inaccurate, or that it would affect OTHERS the way it affected me. You can't tell me I'm wrong for the way I feel about what you said, because it is the way I feel. You can apologize and tell me that that was not your intention to make me feel bad. You can say that you would not feel that way if someone said to you what they said to me. You could even call me a pussy for being affected at all. But you can't just up and tell me I'm wrong for feeling the way your statement made me feel. The fact is, if you were reading everything I had to say carefully, you might be able to see how your statement could be considered a bit rude.

Second, I don't think you read everything I said to say very carefully. I VERY CLEARLY stated that I spent $27,000 pesos on my used car. That comes out to U$S 8,800 +-, which is at least U$S 6,000 short of your stated "second hand price" of U$S 15,000. That is 170% MORE than I was willing to spend. In fact, I didn't mention in my original post, I was actually hoping to spend U$S 5,000 originally! I just couldn't find any used cars at that price that I could live with. So your price of U$S 15,000 is actually 300% of what I originally wanted to spend.

I don't know that I can even find a NEW car for U$S 9,000. I don't believe that is possible. A new car that I can currently buy for even U$S 15,000 will not serve me. Again, it is great that YOU would buy a new low-end car, but I need a little more space than a two seater, or a four-seater with absolutely (or almost) no trunk / storage space. I am married to a woman who also has family here in Buenos Aires and sometimes want to carry people with she and I, as well as the things that those people may have.

Have you looked at prices for new cars? I did, cursorily, and I wanted something a little better than the small cars I could buy for U$S 15,000 NEW.

Third, again you didn't read very clearly what I said, because I NEVER said that "no foreigner can afford to buy a brand new car here or something like that."

Here are my quotes related to foreigners and what they can do:

Original Post.

=======================

"I ended up buying a 1999 Renault Megane for 27,000 pesos. The original asking price was 29,500. The price included about 600 pesos in registration fees. I bought it from Centro Automotores S. A."

"Now, this is where it gets interesting. Some insurance companies actually will not insure anyone who does not have a DNI OR a DIPLOMATIC PASSPORT. Yeah, you read that right. The dealerships don't necessarily know this either, because I don't think anyone really deals with this much - how many foreigners here buy cars after all?"

"So it is possible for a foreigner to buy a used car, though at least the first time, it takes a bit to get it done."

Later posts, replying to you.

========================

"My hat is off to those who can afford to pay cash for a high end car (and find one that doesn't have a similar situation - Renault makes high end cars as well, you know) because people in my situation (foreigner with no DNI) will not be getting any loans here."

"Besides, I only mentioned a loan because it was impossible. I would not have taken out a loan here, unless I was going to pay it off much more quickly than the payments. My point there was - 'don't think about it because that is not an option for a foreigner. [my comment - just to reiterate the point, I am talking about securing a loan here not buying a new car]' Unless you want to go to a bank in your country and get a loan on your signature or something."

I don't see anywhere here that says a foreigner cannot afford buy a new car (or something like that) You're right, I do know a guy who bought a new car here, and it is much nicer than my car. If I had the cash, I WOULD have bought new.

Fourth - you are getting pretty high and mighty with your pronouncements. My beach scenario a "figment of [my] imagination." Huh. The point I was trying to make is that SHIT HAPPENS and when it does, it shouldn't take 30 days to recover from it.

Do you have a wife? Have you ever shared keys with her? When you have two cars, for example, and each of you have the a key to both cars on your chain THAT AIN'T NO FIGMENT. Oh but of course, you would have gone to get a third key made immediately. Let's hope you weren't enjoying your car at the beach during those thirty days and got robbed.

Shit happens, Captain and shitty service makes the shit even worse.

Now, with that fourth comment (taken with some of the others) you're starting to actually piss me off. This has now gone beyond discussion into a realm I don't care for.

And I'm done there. I don't want to get into any more tit-for-tat with you. Your opinions on what YOU do with your keys are fine, and what kind of car YOU would buy is fine. I tried to share some information and ended up in a place where I shouldn't have allowed this to go to begin with.

[Monger514]

I have yet to loose a key

"lose"

However, if I did loose one

"lose"

Now, if I let my imagination let loose

Correct (though "run loose" is maybe what you meant)

say that I loose the 2nd key also soon after loosing the first key, then I would call myself a slack slob.

"lose" and "losing"

[Member #3320]

So your comment that there are members of the board that are able to afford new cars, even after I stated the reason that I COULDN'T do so, really only serves to make me feel bad about my inabiliity to enjoy what the "upper class" can enjoy.

El Queso,

You are wrong. My intention was NOt to make you feel bad. I meant was that anyone can buy a brand new car here in Argentina if one is spending up to 15,000 USD for a 2nd hand car. It means that you go for a low end car and buy a new one for the same spending capacity. That is what I would do. I would buy a cheaper car and buy a brand new car than a 2nd hand car. Though I understand the norm here in this country is to buy 2nd hand cars, so that you can buy cars you actually desire than go for cheaper cars.

I had made this comment because you had somewhere mentioned in this post that no foreigner can afford to buy a brand new car here or something like that.

You are right, I was talking about first hand cars. I have no clue about after sales service of 2nd hand cars and thats the reason, i dont believe in 2nd hand cars as you never know what to expect even if you have done a thorough check at time of buying. There could always be nasty surprises and more expenditures soon after getting the ownership as it happened in your case. Thats why I would always recommend brand new cars to anyone thinking of buying a car anywhere in the world. Having said that I know, their are millions of people who like buying 2nd hand cars and do it successfully.

Your story of beach is figment of your imagination. All I know is that for any car I own, I keep one key in a safe locked in my house and the other key is used. I have been driving different cars for past 15 years and I have yet to lose a key. However, if I did lose one, I have a back-up key locked in my house and I wouldn't need to wait for 30 days to start the ignition again, while a new key is ordered. Now, if I let my imagination run loose and say that I lose the 2nd key also soon after losing the first key, then I would call myself a slack slob.

Suerte.

[El Queso]

1. Yes, costs are high especially if its being done in a western European country involving some kind of labour. Remember, even a ordinary meal in a decent restaurant in France could cost close 100 Euros or above.

The price, again, is one thing. I can even accept the price for a one-time thing if it's something I need. But I can still grouse about it.

And again, the labor involved is very minimal. I've seen guys cut keys and these will almost certainly be done on a machine because they are laser cut. I write software and have flashed chips before, and know that the process takes seconds. Even at the prices of those who do SAP (a German comapny, that does business as well in France, not just the US as an example) charge hourly, you couldn't begin to to justify a labor cost as excessive as you are suggesting.

But fine, charge me more, just allow me to get replacements in less than a MONTH!

2. Why shouldn't the dealership make money on "after-sale" services? I know many high end car dealers in my country personally as friends. They always tell me that they hardly make any money on sales of the cars. The main money comes from the after sales service when the customer has a problem after the sales. They clearly told me that is the time, they go for the kill and that is the reason why they go for car dealerships in the first place.

You are right, that a lot of the money does come on the after-sales market. Normally it is in things that people buy all the time, like sport packages, rails for your truck, undercoating, even extended warranties.

I have never bought a car in your country, so again, I can only go by the US, where dealers try to make the people feel like they got a deal, even when they are really getting screwed, and things like extra keys at or near cost and a full tanks of gas when you drive away are actually things that are very easy to do to make someone feel better about their purchase.

Also, I am almost positive that you are talking about new car sales. There is almost no after-market market for used cars, at leat in my country, unless they are used cars with very low mileage being sold at a new car dealership.

3. There are mongers from AP who are driving brand new cars here in BA. We know at least one of them, don't we?

Regarding loans, its not always a great idea to get loans if the rate of interest is very high. At times, you may up paying almost double the original price. There are many individuals in this world including self who believe in buying the cars cash down rather than pay high interests on car loans. And only take house loans if at all.

Well, again, that is great for those who have the cash to buy a new car. I'm not really sure what that has to do with this thread though, considering that I am describing the purchase process of a used car.

So your comment that there are members of the board that are able to afford new cars, even after I stated the reason that I COULDN'T do so, really only serves to make me feel bad about my inabiliity to enjoy what the "upper class" can enjoy.

Besides, I only mentioned a loan because it was impossible. I would not have taken out a loan here, unless I was going to pay it off much more quickly than the payments. My point there was - "don't think about it because that is not an option for a foreigner." Unless you want to go to a bank in your country and get a loan on your signature or something.

In the meantime, whether I bought a new car or a used car, I would still have the same issue related to keys, which leads into the next item:

4. It will be kind of weird for a poor slob to loose both the keys of a brand new car together. It would be a rare phenomenon. I have never heard of that. However, if that happens, it would be because of slackness of the poor slob and this poor slob should be made to pay the price for his slackness.

Wow man, you're really tough on someone trying to survive. If you somehow found yourself in a situation where you didn't have keys to your car, no matter how improbably it seemed, would you really think of yourself as slack and feel ok about being screwed because it's a rare phenomenon?

I could think of something, for example; my wife and I both are at the beach and we both have a key to our car with us. I ask her to put my keys in her purse because they are too bulky for my swim suit. We watch her purse carefully while we're tanning because not only does it have the keys, but also money, etc.

We decide to go up to the local bar and grab a couple of drinks. She slings her purse over her shoulder and we walk up the beach toward the bar. Suddenly, some punk comes running up, cuts her shoulder strap and runs off with the purse, our keys along with it.

Huh. So, I could replace everyone of my credits cards (at least the ones that come from my country) in a few days, maybe a week to ten days at worst, depending on the card and the service. I could certainly replace my passport in less than a month, though I've never had to do that so I'm guessing, but I've heard others talk about a lot less time.

But my keys to my expensive used (or new) car, I can't replace in less than thirty days. Hmmmm. And I was slack for allowing that thief to run off with my new keys. I should have thought ahead and figured out some way to make sure that those keys were enver in the same place at the same time.

Now, I thought of that scenario in about 10 seconds. I actually had something similar to that happen in Rome about 8 years ago, but I wasn't driving at the time - it was my wallet I lost because I asked my ex-wife to put my wallet in her purse because I was afraid of pickpockets (we were going into the subway to go to see the Pope speak on Easter). A thief came up behind her, cut the straps to her backpack purse (i.e., it was around BOTH shoulders) and ran off. I only lost some cash (most of my money with me was in traveler's checks) and my cards, so I know what it was like replacing everything except my passport, which was sitting back at the hotel room.

I could probably think of another scenario if I really wanted to.

But the whole point of this is that no matter how rare something might be like that, the keys to one's car should not take 30 days to replace NO MATTER WHAT COUNTRY you are from or live in. Charge me a premium for rush service, that's fine. The keys cost a lot? That sucks, sure, but at least it can be done.

[El Queso]

Aqualung,

I can't have a locksmith make the key - the problem is the chip that is built into the key and the encrypted code that it transmits when it unlocks the door. If you don't unlock the door with that key, the engine won't start. I first started having that problem with my first key when I was out and about outside of the city - the key wouldn't unlock the door electronically (about one out of every ten tries it worked) and when I tried to start the engine it would just sputter and die.

Also, I bought a Renault because it is made in Argentina. The plant is in Santa Isabel, about 10 klicks outside Cordoba.

I understand about prices for used cars. It wasn't a complaint I was making in my original post, it was simply information for those who might consider a car.

It never occurred to me to find out how much it would cost in money AND time to have a replacement key made. They gave me two keys and I didn't think I would need to have a new key made.

[Aqualung]

I bet anything that you can find a local locksmith that can fix the problem in half an hour for ten pesos!

But the main point is if the car is an import, so will all the parts. If the car or parts for it are made locally it's going to be easier and cheaper to have it repaired.

As to prices for used cars in Argentina, just check the prices of new cars in relation to local wages so you will find why there is so much demand for second hand cars.

Also, for very many years Argentina had very strict restrictions on imported vehicles to "protect" the local industry. This led to things like the Ford Falcon being built here with only minor cosmetic changes from the early sixties to mid nineties so if you had a 1969 Falcon why bother spending a shitload of money on changing it for the 1979 version of exactly the same car? You just put a little money into repairs and made it run till at least 1989! Then you sold your twenty year old car for a good amount to someone who couldn't dream of buying a new one and so on!

Repairs here are cheap - at least labour and local built parts are - and in general very good either for mechanical parts as for body-building so it's fairly easy to keep a car in good shape.

I drive a 1987 Ford Sierra Ghia (which I bought brand new) and wouldn't sell it for - Well - I just wouldn't sell it. Period!

And that is exactly how many Argentines feel about their cars thus pushing up the used car prices!

Oh, and I paid last week 4 pesos for a new key for the gas tank!

[Member #3320]

Does it really cost that much to have a key made and a chip flashed?

I would be willing to bet that most of the fee involved is the dealership trying to make a few bucks any way it can at the expense of customer sataisfaction.

My hat is off to those who can afford to pay cash for a high end car (and find one that doesn't have a similar situation - Renault makes high end cars as well, you know) because people in my situation (foreigner with no DNI) will not be getting any loans here.

What happens if some poor slob lost his keys eight years ago? He still would have been out of luck, unable to drive his shiny new car for a month while the process is sorted out.

Here is the answer to some of your comments above,

1. Yes, costs are high especially if its being done in a western European country involving some kind of labour. Remember, even a ordinary meal in a decent restaurant in France could cost close 100 Euros or above.

2. Why shouldn't the dealership make money on "after-sale" services? I know many high end car dealers in my country personally as friends. They always tell me that they hardly make any money on sales of the cars. The main money comes from the after sales service when the customer has a problem after the sales. They clearly told me that is the time, they go for the kill and that is the reason why they go for car dealerships in the first place.

3. There are mongers from AP who are driving brand new cars here in BA. We know at least one of them, don't we?

Regarding loans, its not always a great idea to get loans if the rate of interest is very high. At times, you may up paying almost double the original price. There are many individuals in this world including self who believe in buying the cars cash down rather than pay high interests on car loans. And only take house loans if at all.

4. It will be kind of weird for a poor slob to loose both the keys of a brand new car together. It would be a rare phenomenon. I have never heard of that. However, if that happens, it would be because of slackness of the poor slob and this poor slob should be made to pay the price for his slackness.