Thread: American Politics during the Obama Presidency

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  1. #6856

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to WorldTravel69 For This Post:


  3. #6855

    Bob, sorry this is very late

    Quote Originally Posted by AllIWantIsLove  [View Original Post]
    Interesting Shawman. Thank you.

    I'm sure you are aware of offsetting studies, one of which contains this paragraph:

    "Altogether, according to the state and local tax data analysispublished by the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy (ITEP)undocumented immigrants contribute about $11.6 billion to the economy annually, including nearly $7 billion in sales and excise taxes and $3.6 billion in property taxes. They are, in economic terms, productive citizens, and pay a higher effective tax rate than the top 1 percent income bracket. That alone is not the primary reason they should be embraced as neighbors and coworkers. But it dissolves the myth that immigrants do nothing but drain public coffers.".

    (source: https://www.thenation.com/article/un...omy-each-year/).

    And many illegal immigrants pay federal income taxes (one reason being that they don't want to damage their chances should another amnesty program come along).

    This is a contentious issue only because we are trying to have it both ways. We want low produce prices and inexpensive landscaping etc. But we say that we don't want the immigrant laborers who make such prices possible. It's similar to the outsourcing issue. We want to go to Walmart and buy cheap clothing etc. But we don't want jobs sent overseas.

    See this article ( http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/05/us...ant-labor.html) for one farmer's experience trying to hire US citizens to do harvesting instead of importing labor from Mexico.

    Thanks again for the references.

    Bob.
    My bad if im bumping this thread too hard, but i just caught it now. Again, my bad. I would refer you to the "truth about immigration" presentation by stefan molyneaux, its on y.o.u.t.u.b.e. It directly addresses the core of your argument. Its incredibly thorough and cites all sources. Highly recommended!

  4. #6854

    I wasn't attacking anybody

    Quote Originally Posted by Doppelganger  [View Original Post]
    Here we go again, why didn't you post all of the response which did engage your argument?

    Now you guys are doing two things which indicated you have lost the argument - pipe dreams and name calling / denigration of the other side.

    In case you have not noticed the political power is currently in Trump's court. The first thing the bone headed Republican House does is try to gut the very partisan ethics unit. One tweet from Trump and they backed off.

    I would prefer to see an independent ethics unit along the lines of a special prosecutor with the power to subpoena documents and seek indictments - but they would have to be totally non-partisan not like the panel we have now which reports to Congress. You would see a lot of Democrats and Republicans going down in flames, a proposition I have no problem with.

    Gentlemen, lets just argue and dispense with the personal attacks, it only indicates you have lost the argument.
    I said it's not something I wanted to see happen and I agree with you about the ethics thing. There's some choices Trump has made that I disagree with but there's been more than a few that I think have been good. I certainly have reservations about Trump but as Obama said, "elections have consequences" and the people spoke and Trump got elected, I'm willing to see what he does. This is nothing new from me, you can ask el jeffe if you want, he and I have spoken about this several times.

    As for my prediction I stand by it and the offer to buy you supper if it's wrong.

  5. #6853

    Typical Liberals/Progressives

    Quote Originally Posted by DaddyRulz  [View Original Post]
    I'm not 100% sure that the Republicans will let him make it through his whole term. I'm thinking it's 50/50 that Pence is president when 2020 rolls around and that the Republicans controlling the Senate and House (not the Dems mind you) are the ones that will make it happen.

    I think, don't know but think, that something pretty serious may end up coming out of this Russian thing. I know all the neo cons are going to immediately denounce this as that seems to be the strategy. I'm not saying that I want that to happen, I'm saying I think it's better than 50/50 that it will.

    Just getting on record, if I'm wrong and he's still holding office come November of 2020 Doppelganger will be invited to supper any place he would like to go and it will be my treat.

    In any event, it's going to be interesting to watch.

    DR.
    Here we go again, why didn't you post all of the response which did engage your argument?

    Now you guys are doing two things which indicated you have lost the argument - pipe dreams and name calling / denigration of the other side.

    In case you have not noticed the political power is currently in Trump's court. The first thing the bone headed Republican House does is try to gut the very partisan ethics unit. One tweet from Trump and they backed off.

    I would prefer to see an independent ethics unit along the lines of a special prosecutor with the power to subpoena documents and seek indictments - but they would have to be totally non-partisan not like the panel we have now which reports to Congress. You would see a lot of Democrats and Republicans going down in flames, a proposition I have no problem with.

    Gentlemen, lets just argue and dispense with the personal attacks, it only indicates you have lost the argument.

  6. #6852

    Great offer

    Quote Originally Posted by DaddyRulz  [View Original Post]
    I'm not 100% sure that the Republicans will let him make it through his whole term. I'm thinking it's 50/50 that Pence is president when 2020 rolls around and that the Republicans controlling the Senate and House (not the Dems mind you) are the ones that will make it happen.

    I think, don't know but think, that something pretty serious may end up coming out of this Russian thing. I know all the neo cons are going to immediately denounce this as that seems to be the strategy. I'm not saying that I want that to happen, I'm saying I think it's better than 50/50 that it will.

    Just getting on record, if I'm wrong and he's still holding office come November of 2020 Doppelganger will be invited to supper any place he would like to go and it will be my treat.

    In any event, it's going to be interesting to watch.

    DR.
    Doppelgänger, I recommend The Commander's Palace in New Orleans......best bread pudding in the world.

  7. #6851

    Venue

    Quote Originally Posted by DaddyRulz  [View Original Post]
    I'm not 100% sure that the Republicans will let him make it through his whole term. I'm thinking it's 50/50 that Pence is president when 2020 rolls around and that the Republicans controlling the Senate and House (not the Dems mind you) are the ones that will make it happen.

    I think, don't know but think, that something pretty serious may end up coming out of this Russian thing. I know all the neo cons are going to immediately denounce this as that seems to be the strategy. I'm not saying that I want that to happen, I'm saying I think it's better than 50/50 that it will.

    Just getting on record, if I'm wrong and he's still holding office come November of 2020 Doppelganger will be invited to supper any place he would like to go and it will be my treat.

    In any event, it's going to be interesting to watch.

    DR.
    Doppelgnger ......I recommend The Commander's Palace in New Orleans.........best bread pudding in the world.

  8. #6850

    Making a prediction not engaging in the argument

    Quote Originally Posted by Doppelganger  [View Original Post]
    Can you even imagine what you will hear when he wins reelection?
    I'm not 100% sure that the Republicans will let him make it through his whole term. I'm thinking it's 50/50 that Pence is president when 2020 rolls around and that the Republicans controlling the Senate and House (not the Dems mind you) are the ones that will make it happen.

    I think, don't know but think, that something pretty serious may end up coming out of this Russian thing. I know all the neo cons are going to immediately denounce this as that seems to be the strategy. I'm not saying that I want that to happen, I'm saying I think it's better than 50/50 that it will.

    Just getting on record, if I'm wrong and he's still holding office come November of 2020 Doppelganger will be invited to supper any place he would like to go and it will be my treat.

    In any event, it's going to be interesting to watch.

    DR.

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to Daddy Rulz For This Post:


  10. #6849
    Quote Originally Posted by Doppelganger  [View Original Post]
    See attached. Laura Bush was a recipient.

    http://www.gettyimages.com/event/pre...arade-84177747#president-george-w-bush-reviews-us-troops-during-a-military-parade-picture-id84184209.
    Your link is to photographs which I'd guess was not your intention.

    It turns out (as I just learned in the past 2 minutes) that there are two awards, the DoD Medal for Distinguished Public Service and the Secretary of Defense Medal for Outstanding Public Service. The former was given to Obama, George W. Bush, Bill Clinton and a few others. The latter has been given to Laura Bush and Hillary Clinton and many others. (All according to Wikipedia.).

    Bob.

  11. #6848
    Senior Member


    Posts: 1040
    Quote Originally Posted by WorldTravel69  [View Original Post]
    The money it costs to keep a person in jail is around $165,000 a year. And some people worry about $65,000 to people that want to work.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/24/ny...tudy-says.html
    That article says $31,000 is the average cost over 40 states. $168k is just for NYC.

  12. #6847

    Nope

    Quote Originally Posted by Shawman  [View Original Post]
    Ok fine, give me $65,000/yr for free in after tax cash out of your pocket, would you be okay with that? I would!
    He doesn't mean he pays you he means all the "other people" pay. A Liberal/Progressive will give away YOUR last dollar.

    As far as the prison population expense - so they really need air conditioning, counseling, color TV, not forced to work, et al?

    Like the old wild west - "Horse thieves will be shot and survivors will be hung".

    I just can't wait to hear this guys bit*h and moan when he takes office. Can you even imagine what you will hear when he wins reelection?

  13. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Doppelganger For This Post:


  14. #6846
    Quote Originally Posted by WorldTravel69  [View Original Post]
    The money it costs to keep a person in jail is around $165,000 a year. And some people worry about $65,000 to people that want to work.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/24/ny...tudy-says.html
    Ok fine, give me $65,000/yr for free in after tax cash out of your pocket, would you be okay with that? I would!

  15. #6845

    Laura Bush

    See attached. Laura Bush was a recipient.

    http://www.gettyimages.com/event/pre...arade-84177747#president-george-w-bush-reviews-us-troops-during-a-military-parade-picture-id84184209.

  16. #6844
    Quote Originally Posted by Shawman  [View Original Post]
    Just for clarity, the $65k/yr is not all cash in pocket, its the aggregate value in total govt benefits rec'd.

    http://cis.org/immigrant-welfare-use-2011 <-- the source is questionable, but it makes some good points.

    http://www.fairus.org/DocServer/rese...Study_2014.pdf

    http://amac.us/illegal-immigration-cost-1/

    https://www.texmed.org/July14Journal/

    http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/...aid-treatment/

    http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/20...llect-welfare/

    And in texas, citizenship is not req'd for welfare benefits, which can also include a direct cash salary. The welfare officers have no oversight, no budget, and no accountability.
    Interesting Shawman. Thank you.

    I'm sure you are aware of offsetting studies, one of which contains this paragraph:

    "Altogether, according to the state and local tax data analysis—published by the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy (ITEP)—undocumented immigrants contribute about $11.6 billion to the economy annually, including nearly $7 billion in sales and excise taxes and $3.6 billion in property taxes. They are, in economic terms, productive citizens, and pay a higher effective tax rate than the top 1 percent income bracket. That alone is not the primary reason they should be embraced as neighbors and coworkers. But it dissolves the myth that immigrants do nothing but drain public coffers.".

    (source: https://www.thenation.com/article/un...omy-each-year/).

    And many illegal immigrants pay federal income taxes (one reason being that they don't want to damage their chances should another amnesty program come along).

    This is a contentious issue only because we are trying to have it both ways. We want low produce prices and inexpensive landscaping etc. But we say that we don't want the immigrant laborers who make such prices possible. It's similar to the outsourcing issue. We want to go to Walmart and buy cheap clothing etc. But we don't want jobs sent overseas.

    See this article ( http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/05/us...ant-labor.html) for one farmer's experience trying to hire US citizens to do harvesting instead of importing labor from Mexico.

    Thanks again for the references.

    Bob.

  17. #6843
    Quote Originally Posted by Doppelganger  [View Original Post]
    Laura Bush received the award as did Bill Clinton - George did not.

    After gutting the military for 8 years this SOB awards himself this award - come on get real.

    I am sure he feels he is of the same stature as McAuthor/LeMay/Weyland/Clay.
    Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depart...Public_Service) says it was George W. And does not mention Laura.

  18. #6842

    Tax Free

    The money it costs to keep a person in jail is around $165,000 a year. And some people worry about $65,000 to people that want to work.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/24/ny...tudy-says.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Shawman  [View Original Post]
    Its easy to start at the bottom when your salary amounts to a very very nice tip on top of about $65,000/yr courtesy of government subsidies, and all of it absolutely tax free. Btw, even though we the people pay into those programs (at gunpoint, mind you), we get absolutely ZERO access to any of them and have ZERO say so in any of it.

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