Making a documentary about mongering in Argentina

[Tres3]

Your intentions might be legitimate, but there are risks to whomever appears in your video. Unfortunately, what is filmed can be misused, misinterpreted, and ruin your reputation for life.

Back in 2000, I was with a group of guys (mostly Americans) in Thailand. A Frenchman somehow attached himself to our group by always offering to buy drinks. The guy always had his video camera out. I felt uncomfortable with his constant filming so I always dodged being in his video camera's frame. Other guys played to the camera. A year later, I get an e-mail that the Frenchman's video was being used in a French TV documentary about sexual exploitation in Thailand. Facial images were not blurred so the guys were recognizable and those guys were frantic about the repercussion. They decided to stop going to Thailand for several years in case immigration officials in Thailand captured their images.

One of the guys was able to contact the Frenchman who claimed ignorance as to the end use of his video. He said he sold his video and all his rights to it so he had no control over editing or the context of its use.

I learned a long time ago (the hard way) do not ever ever ever let your picture be taken in a foreign country unless you know the person taking the picture really really well! Even when you know them, it is better to err on the side of paranoia. With the advent of photo shop, it is really scary out there.

Tres3.

[Yujin]

Hello all and thank you for all your comments. If I get nothing else from this I can say that the debate has been informative and helpful for me in my research. Poker, thank you for giving me more info about the difficulties the girls must go through while working here. I am currently buying every book I can find to get the info about the history and realities of prostitution here in Argentina and would love recommendation if anyone has any.

Again, I completely understand why many of you would not be interested in getting in front of the camera to film this documentary, but none theless your insider information has been crucial for me and whatever else you could give me would be great. I have received a few responses from mongers who are interested in being filmed and if anyone else is interested that would be wonderful. The problem now will be finding girls who would be willing.

Now for a little more info about myself. I am a filmmaker from California. I work mainly as a film editor and super 8 cinematographer. I have edited documentaries in the past but this will be my first feature length documentary. The project is being made through a documentary film school here in Buenos Aires and around Novermber / December I will be contacting the INCAA which is the film organization here for funds to finance the film. If you are interested you can see my past work here: http://vimeo.com/jzsuper8.

Thank you all again.

Your intentions might be legitimate, but there are risks to whomever appears in your video. Unfortunately, what is filmed can be misused, misinterpreted, and ruin your reputation for life.

Back in 2000, I was with a group of guys (mostly Americans) in Thailand. A Frenchman somehow attached himself to our group by always offering to buy drinks. The guy always had his video camera out. I felt uncomfortable with his constant filming so I always dodged being in his video camera's frame. Other guys played to the camera. A year later, I get an e-mail that the Frenchman's video was being used in a French TV documentary about sexual exploitation in Thailand. Facial images were not blurred so the guys were recognizable and those guys were frantic about the repercussion. They decided to stop going to Thailand for several years in case immigration officials in Thailand captured their images.

One of the guys was able to contact the Frenchman who claimed ignorance as to the end use of his video. He said he sold his video and all his rights to it so he had no control over editing or the context of its use.

[DocMan]

Hello all and thank you for all your comments. If I get nothing else from this I can say that the debate has been informative and helpful for me in my research. Poker, thank you for giving me more info about the difficulties the girls must go through while working here. I am currently buying every book I can find to get the info about the history and realities of prostitution here in Argentina and would love recommendation if anyone has any.

Again, I completely understand why many of you would not be interested in getting in front of the camera to film this documentary, but none theless your insider information has been crucial for me and whatever else you could give me would be great. I have received a few responses from mongers who are interested in being filmed and if anyone else is interested that would be wonderful. The problem now will be finding girls who would be willing.

Now for a little more info about myself. I am a filmmaker from California. I work mainly as a film editor and super 8 cinematographer. I have edited documentaries in the past but this will be my first feature length documentary. The project is being made through a documentary film school here in Buenos Aires and around Novermber / December I will be contacting the INCAA which is the film organization here for funds to finance the film. If you are interested you can see my past work here: http://vimeo.com/jzsuper8.

Thank you all again.

[AllIWantIsLove]

DocMan,

A P.S. To my other, longer, post. You might gain a lot of credibility here if you revealed your name and a list of the documentaries you've done. If you are legit I can't think of a good reason why you couldn't reveal that information.

Bob.

[AllIWantIsLove]

DocMan,

I am much less negative than Poker.

As I understand and use "abuse" I can not think of a single girl I've seen in Buenos Aries who I ever thought might have been abused. (I don't consider having to pay a bribe, e.g., as abuse).

And I think that your documentary might do everyone some good. As you said, plain ol' prostitution gets mixed up with too many other things. If you focus on guys who, for whatever reason, are willing to spend money to have plain ol' sex with women who, for whatever reason, are perfectly willing to exchange sex for money ... I think that such a documentary would be a positive contribution to the world.

Many people in many professions prostitute things more valuable, in my option, than genitalia. Give an ugly, fat, old guy like me a few minutes of pleasure and you're a looked-down-upon working girl. Enact legislation to benefit a corporation at the expensive of taxpayers and you're just another politician. There's a great angle for you ... Compare and contrast sexual prostitution to prostitution of other things (skills, labor, integrity, creativity, etc). Rent your womb to a childless couple for 9 months and you've done a great thing; rent something a few inches downstream for 15-60 minutes and you're trash.

I am not sure about how willing girls might be to be in your documentary. Most do, after all, have their photos on web sites. And some even have explicit videos on web sites (evasonline). So I think some might be willing. Money, of course, would help. And maybe you could guarantee that the documentary would never be shown in South America. Well ... People who make documentaries have this problem all of the time and you know the solutions better than I do.

I, on the other hand, would not appear in your documentary. But short of that I might participate in other ways if I was sure you would concentrate on the type of mongering I, and I think most others here, engage in. And I'd have to know that you are not Michael Less.

How much monger participation do you really need? I've seen great documentaries on wolves and the wolves, although they appear, have little to say. And I've seen great documentaries on fracking and the gas company executives don't appear. If necessary couldn't you just get actors to paraphrase info you've obtained from the members here?

If you have in mind what I think / hope you have in mind I wish you luck and support your effort.

Bob.

Hello All,

Thank you for responding. Forgive me for the delay but I have been working on pre-production issues on the Doc. Now, I want to be as open with you guys as possible. The film will be a critical analysis but it will be one from all angles. The reason I chose this forum instead of just any escort website is because I am intested in monger culture. I agree that 99% of documentaries about prostitution deal with women who are forced into their position and are possibly abused by pimps and aggressive men. For me this complicates the issue. The idea about working with this group is that it is prostitution in the ideal. The girls are well paid and work independently. It is my idea that only in this situation can we have a true analysis of what prositution and sex tourism really is. Only by removing the sensationalist aspects of human trafficking and white slavery (which are very real problems but will probably not be discussed in this film) can we have a real debate about the subject.

My only problem is whether I can get enough Mongers who would be willing to get in front of the camera and explain a little bit about what they do. This is what the film really hinges on. So if anyone is interested please send me a PM and I will get back to you. Thanks again!

[Poker]

Hello All,

Thank you for responding. Forgive me for the delay but I have been working on pre-production issues on the Doc. Now, I want to be as open with you guys as possible. The film will be a critical analysis but it will be one from all angles. The reason I chose this forum instead of just any escort website is because I am intested in monger culture. I agree that 99% of documentaries about prostitution deal with women who are forced into their position and are possibly abused by pimps and aggressive men. For me this complicates the issue. The idea about working with this group is that it is prostitution in the ideal. The girls are well paid and work independently. It is my idea that only in this situation can we have a true analysis of what prositution and sex tourism really is. Only by removing the sensationalist aspects of human trafficking and white slavery (which are very real problems but will probably not be discussed in this film) can we have a real debate about the subject.

My only problem is whether I can get enough Mongers who would be willing to get in front of the camera and explain a little bit about what they do. This is what the film really hinges on. So if anyone is interested please send me a PM and I will get back to you. Thanks again!

DocMan,

No idea where you got the notion that someone with his right mind from this group would be willing to even be with you in the same room.

Also I can tell you right up front, that chica world in Buenos Aires, just like any other part of the world is a mixed bag.

Yes you have many independents, but even those who really chose this profession due to the advantages listed bellow, are or were subject to abuse at one time or another.

Even if the abuse was not sexual, for example they need an apartment to operate from, while it cost let say 4000 pesos for a family the same apartment for a chica will cost 15 or 20,000 and that is not counting the bribes they have to pay anyone from the doorman to the police. In general many women in places like Argentina get abused one way or another in their life, because it is a macho society, so if you talk to most chicas long enough they will have an abuse (and I don't mean only sexual abuse) story to tell you.

You also have more chicas that work in houses, maybe they are free to go in and out, but the working conditions in most of these houses are difficult and the sharing of the money does not favor the working chica.

On the other hand you have us from the US or Europe who think that everyone lives like we do, so when we come to enjoy ourselves and we meet a pleasant attractive chica we give her respect. We try hard that she will be happy with us, so we can enjoy the time we spend with her. It is legal in Argentina, it is very pleasant because most chicas treat you very nice after the first complement you give them. We do not add neither (subtract much) from their daily life baggage. For us it is like Jackson says we use a service and pay for it, not much different than your wife uses the gym (for example).

We do it in Argentina because it is better than doing it near your relatives at home and also because the chicas here are higher quality and believe that they have to give you a good service. Many of them actually take pride in the level of service they provide, as they make a living of repeating clientele.

But why do we need you to meddle in our affairs, why would the chicas would want to be in your movie, unless you are willing to pay someone a ton of money.

I agree with everyone that you might as well write your own script and pay professional actors to read it while you are directing the so called documentary.

[DocMan]

Hello All,

Thank you for responding. Forgive me for the delay but I have been working on pre-production issues on the Doc. Now, I want to be as open with you guys as possible. The film will be a critical analysis but it will be one from all angles. The reason I chose this forum instead of just any escort website is because I am intested in monger culture. I agree that 99% of documentaries about prostitution deal with women who are forced into their position and are possibly abused by pimps and aggressive men. For me this complicates the issue. The idea about working with this group is that it is prostitution in the ideal. The girls are well paid and work independently. It is my idea that only in this situation can we have a true analysis of what prositution and sex tourism really is. Only by removing the sensationalist aspects of human trafficking and white slavery (which are very real problems but will probably not be discussed in this film) can we have a real debate about the subject.

My only problem is whether I can get enough Mongers who would be willing to get in front of the camera and explain a little bit about what they do. This is what the film really hinges on. So if anyone is interested please send me a PM and I will get back to you. Thanks again!

[Member #3320]

you cannot trust the news

Exactly! You can never trust the news! Never! Be it this subject or politics or any subject. They always show, what they want to or what they have been asked to show!

[Nikki]

This is so true. I have met some working girls, and they are no victims, they are ok with what they do and they see it as a shortcut. The same old same old poor, ignorant and abused girl is just a media cliche. Not all working girls are victims. They are adult women that choose what they think it is best at the time. Not all pimps are evil guys threatening them, some girls are madly in love with them and do not have a problem supporting them. THere are a thousand different stories and they always show the same one, not sure why. As for the clients, there are also gentlemen that respect them and really are just looking for NSA sex, not all clients are freaks unable to score. The way this is shown on media is so distorted that if you extrapolate it to, let's say politics, come to the conclusion you cannot trust the news as they are not objective at all.

I agree with Chezz.

For one thing, every documentary I've ever seen on the subject (EXCEPT one episode on the subject produced by Penn Juliet for his show "Bullshit") was anti-contractual sex.

In order to gain a wider audience for their docu-drama, these filmmakers always try to sensationalize the subject by attempting to associate commercial sex between consenting adults with completely unrelated subjects like child abuse, human trafficking, kidnapping, sexual slavery, etc.

They also have a tendency to distort the perspective by selecting only those interviews that further their agenda. These guys will interview 50 working girls, 49 of which would express things like the money is 20 times what they'd earn in a "regular" job, that they set their own hours which gives them time to study, take care of their children, etc., that they have no boss, that they decide who they do and don't have for clients, that it's "only sex", etc., etc., etc. Nevertheless, these positive interviews will end up on the cutting room floor as the producer will instead use the one interview of the girl who claims that she was abused as a child, that she was forced into the profession, that she is some sort of sex slave, that she can't escape, etc.

Prove me wrong, DocMan.

Until then, in my opinion these things are always hack jobs, and I say no.

Thanks,

Jackson.

[Member #4112]

DocMan can't be Michael Moore. Moore is down in the workers' paradise of Cuba where if the hookers give him anything he can get the best medical treatment in the world.

The only documentary I have ever seen that was on the up and up was Sexo Ubrano on HBO and even then the liberals and the conservatives could find something to ***** about.

[Thomaso276]

Hello,

I am an American Filmmaker working and living in Buenos Aires. I have been doing some research in the hopes of making a documentary about mongering here in Argentina. I wanted to get a feeling of the possibility of finding a subject who would be comfortable about showing me the ins and out of the community. I realize that I am in a forum that is called Argentina Private but I wanted to know if you all thought it would be a possibility.

Thank you.

Data on some of your films? Credits? DocMan are you really Michael Moore?

[Member #3320]

I agree with Chezz.

For one thing, every documentary I've ever seen on the subject (EXCEPT one episode on the subject produced by Penn Juliet for his show "Bullshit") was anti-contractual sex.

In order to gain a wider audience for their docu-drama, these filmmakers always try to sensationalize the subject by attempting to associate commercial sex between consenting adults with completely unrelated subjects like child abuse, human trafficking, kidnapping, sexual slavery, etc.

They also have a tendency to distort the perspective by selecting only those interviews that further their agenda. These guys will interview 50 working girls, 49 of which would express things like the money is 20 times what they'd earn in a "regular" job, that they set their own hours which gives them time to study, take care of their children, etc., that they have no boss, that they decide who they do and don't have for clients, that it's "only sex", etc., etc., etc. Nevertheless, these positive interviews will end up on the cutting room floor as the producer will instead use the one interview of the girl who claims that she was abused as a child, that she was forced into the profession, that she is some sort of sex slave, that she can't escape, etc.

Prove me wrong, DocMan.

Until then, in my opinion these things are always hack jobs, and I say no.

Thanks,

Jackson.

Couldn't agree more. You almost stole my words from my mind, Jackson.

I agree, all these documentaries show the 'clients' as very bad, inhuman, strange men and the 'working girls' as having been abused, raped, forced, not been paid, has not seen her famly for 10 yrs, and is hidden in some hole under the earth forever, etc, etc.

And the commentator always speaks in some very very grave/distressed voiceover!

[Jackson]

What good could possibly come from something like this? If you want to know "the ins and outs of the community", rtff. But I cannot imagine any upside to you turning on a camera and making a documentary.

I agree with Chezz.

For one thing, every documentary I've ever seen on the subject (EXCEPT one episode on the subject produced by Penn Juliet for his show "Bullshit") was anti-contractual sex.

In order to gain a wider audience for their docu-dramas, these filmmakers always try to sensationalize the subject by attempting to associate commercial sex between consenting adults with completely unrelated subjects like child abuse, human trafficking, kidnapping, sexual assault, etc.

They also have a tendency to distort reality by selecting only those interviews that further their agenda. For example, these guys will interview 50 working girls, 49 of which would express things like the money is 20 times what they'd earn in a "regular" job, that they set their own hours which gives them time to study, take care of their children, etc., that they have no boss, that they decide who they do and don't have for clients, that it's "only sex", etc., etc., etc. Nevertheless, these positive interviews will end up on the cutting room floor as the producer will instead use the one interview of the girl who claims that she was abused as a child, that she was forced into the profession, that she is some sort of sex slave, that she can't escape, etc.

Prove me wrong, DocMan.

Until then, in my opinion these things are always hack jobs, and I say no.

Thanks,

Jackson.

[Chezz]

What good could possibly come from something like this? If you want to know "the ins and outs of the community", rtff. But I cannot imagine any upside to you turning on a camera and making a documentary.

Hello,

I am an American Filmmaker working and living in Buenos Aires. I have been doing some research in the hopes of making a documentary about mongering here in Argentina. I wanted to get a feeling of the possibility of finding a subject who would be comfortable about showing me the ins and out of the community. I realize that I am in a forum that is called Argentina Private but I wanted to know if you all thought it would be a possibility.

Thank you.

[DocMan]

Hello,

I am an American Filmmaker working and living in Buenos Aires. I have been doing some research in the hopes of making a documentary about mongering here in Argentina. I wanted to get a feeling of the possibility of finding a subject who would be comfortable about showing me the ins and out of the community. I realize that I am in a forum that is called Argentina Private but I wanted to know if you all thought it would be a possibility.

Thank you.