Are Chicas ever real?

[Andres]

I have a very good Argentine friend who's married to an Argentine women who are operating a business in the US, but make no mistake about it, these are real parillada-eating, Malbec-guzzling Portenos with real Republica de la Argentina passports, and my friend's opinion of Argentine women (and his Portena wife for that matter) is that they are, in his own words, "the worst" of the lot and the most difficult when it comes to interpersonal relationships with men. And I have had discussions about the differences between Argentine and American wives with numerous Argentine friends and the general consensus is that Argentine women are the same as women all around the globe - once you marry them they all nag and whine and complain and break their husband's balls wherever possible and this phenomenon doesn't have international borders! Women are basically women in relationships and marriage!

I mostly agree with that. Almost anywhere in the World, you will have to "play games" or stand still in order to keep your wife interested and / or under control.

What I would add is that Argentine women are more prone to spend time with their families (most of them live in the city they were born) than the American counterparts, and also that they have to work very hard to meet both ends of the month. Thus, if you as a husband agree to join your wife on half of the Sunday lunchs with your parents in law and you also provide to supporting the home, chances are your wife will be happy with you.

In the States, I don't know if supporting the home and sharing half of your free time with your sweetie be enough to keep her controlled.

Andres

[DownBA]

To everybody who's smitten by the lovely Argentine working chica from time to time, don't forget for a second that women of ALL cultures and nationalities try to put their best foot forward in a new relationship with a new man regardless of what nationality the new man is and regardless of how much money the new man has - US women are no different than Argentine women in this regard.

Yet there's something very alluring and romantic and sexy and BLINDING about having a cute little hottie who speaks a different language who lives in a very romantic city (BA) be very nice to you and put her best foot forward the way BA professional escorts know how to do with their clients. Something that can easily fog a man's mind and make him forget that he's more vulnerable than usual to forgetting that when he leaves this cutie that she's more than likely going to be doing the same thing with a different client before the end of the week. And likely keeping in contact via email with a half-dozen or more other guys that fell for her charms.

I have a very good Argentine friend who's married to an Argentine women who are operating a business in the US, but make no mistake about it, these are real parillada-eating, Malbec-guzzling Portenos with real Republica de la Argentina passports, and my friend's opinion of Argentine women (and his Portena wife for that matter) is that they are, in his own words, "the worst" of the lot and the most difficult when it comes to interpersonal relationships with men. And I have had discussions about the differences between Argentine and American wives with numerous Argentine friends and the general consensus is that Argentine women are the same as women all around the globe - once you marry them they all nag and whine and complain and break their husband's balls wherever possible and this phenomenon doesn't have international borders! Women are basically women in relationships and marriage!

So to the occasional traveler to Buenos Aires who gets smitten with a professional girl I'd like to warn you that the age old saying about "buyer beware" applies just as well to the Argentine escort from Escortbaires.com and Gemidos.com.ar as to any other women anywhere in the world.

Downba2

[Andres]

Andres,

Thanks for your informative posts, as usual. I have a few questions. You wrote:

I find this very interesting and also shocking! I know some Argentine history and it seems hard to believe that the underlying social /"moral" attitudes and practices of a country could change so drastically in less than a generation. P4P is so rampant and commonplace (like corruption unfortunately) here that I suspect there was a decent P4P scene in Argentina say 50 or 100 years ago. Widespread and widely accepted prostitution seems to be as much a part of Argentine culture as drinking mate and futbol (almost) The current P4P scene in Santiago, Chile is fairly decent in my opinion, but I am using the US scene as a reference there so almost everywhere seems good by comparison.

Although religion may not be the greatest factor, Argentina seems to be very "unreligious". Most Argentines may be baptized Catholic, as am I, but in 5 years here I don't think I have ever personally known someone that went to church, not even once! (except maybe for a wedding) Many / most people I know here mock the church and are quite liberal socially & politically. Again I find it hard to believe that nations / societies can make such fundamental changes to their customs and beliefs in so little time. Possibly the people's ability to freely express their beliefs has changed since the dictatorship but the beliefs themselves have not?

"Human" - you could not have said it any better! US expat guys speculate all the time about why US women are so horrible – materialism, Puritanism, feminazi-ism, etc. As an Argentine man who apparently has spent a lot of time in North America, do you have a simple theory? My short theory is that Argentines, men & women alike, simply tend to be much less aggressive and more gracious & laidback than their US counterparts. As a result, the women (I mean nonpros) here are much less bitchy and demanding and a lot easier to meet and score. And I almost forgot, 90% of them are a helluva lot prettier and sexier than the US "warhogs"!

Cheers,

Moore

Wow. These are 2 difficult questions.

As of cultural changes, the relation of the BA society to prostitution endured a pattern closer to a sinus wave than to a gradual opening.

At the early 1900, there were 500,000 more men than women in the country (I'm talking about a 10M people country! Because European workers came to "do the America", either building the subway, railroads or working in the new factories or farms. During these days, prostitution and traffic of girls from Eastern Europe bloomed. Several literature works reflect that ("Adan Buenosayres" L. Marechal - "Los 7 locos" are. Arlt)

Then, after the increase in the living standards since 1945, this business cooled down a little bit.

After the bloody military regime of 1976-1983 (Proceso) the business restarted again. I remember someone showing me 4 full pages of Clarin (twice the current size) advertising on Rubro 59 by early 1984. It was the time known as the "uncovering" ("destape") when for the first time ladies showed their butt on TV commercials.

Argentina is one of many examples of such fast changes. Spain of 1975-1980 follows the same pattern.

What is interesting is to see the HUGE change in the way girls approach sex and relations. By the early 80s, teenage girls still played the role "I'm a good girl, I'm from a good family, I don't do such things" when met at a disco and cornered to pressure them to surrender. In less than 10 years, teenage girls learned to enjoy it and sometimes they are the ones who corner you.

Respect to Church, things are different in the provinces. These are more conservative, specially if they are poor and / or from the "oldest" Argentina (Northwest, with Catamarca, Salta and La Rioja being good examples) New and rich provinces such as Neuquen (our "Texas") are much less prone to Church influence and more liberal in sex terms.

As of American women, I don't have a simple theory. I recognize several factors that influence this issue, being the most important what I call "the free-buffet syndrome": They can choose almost whatever orientation they want to their lifes and careers, but they also want to play traditional roles, so they end up desiring contradictory things (being independent and at the same time pretending that a man assures their income, demanding being considered equal to men and at the same time pretending that men should "protect" them, be "modern women" and "good mothers" at the same time, etc) Briefly, they want the cake and eat it.

Add to that that the North American society is strongly individualistic and that it is hard to build deep relations with people (friends, girls, etc) and you will have women very prone to break up relationships and follow their next objectives. That may be linked to what you mean by "materialism" (we all are materialistic, in some point or another)

Puritanism is, IMHO, more of a pose or a tool than a real belief (at least in cosmopolitan US cities) They use that when it is convenient, and forget it when they want to accomplish their fantasies (US is, despite all the crap, one of the countries with the most sexual liberty in the World) However, religion plays a role in some circles, too.

As of beauty, it's a whole issue by itself.

- Demands from the business / social environment plays the biggest role: In cities such as NYC, women tend to be prettier and better groomed because the environment forces them to show off constantly (nice and expensive clothes, etc) In university campuses, girls tend to be less conscious of ther physical fit and their wardrobe (they go there to study, not to get a job or husband, so they don't need)

- Difficulties in following track: In cities like Cali, Colombia, girls must be fit and groomed to get some attention, to the point that they spend a big chunk of their low salaries and a lot of time to look well. This is the other extreme, and I call that the "fashion dictatorship". I can understand that women, given to choose, prefer not to follow such pattern. It's cruel to them.

- Mirror-image of men: Many American men don't get much interested in being well fit and groomed. Why women would then do so?

Behind all this framework lies a power game. Girls know how to play men respect to sex, since we are much more impulsive than them (prostitution doesn't help women to take advantage of this, which may explain their staunch opposition to it) And men know (or they should) how to play on the desperation of 30 something girls who feel their biologic clock is saying "last chance to procreate".

This is just scratching the surface.

Andres

[Moore]

Andres,

Thanks for your informative posts, as usual. I have a few questions. You wrote:

- P4P in Argentina is a pretty recent phenomenum. Before 1984, the country was as Catholic-conservative as today's Chile. Little by little the society lightened up and freed from the conservative frame. Today, 22 years later, things are radically different than by then.

I find this very interesting and also shocking! I know some Argentine history and it seems hard to believe that the underlying social/"moral" attitudes and practices of a country could change so drastically in less than a generation. P4P is so rampant and commonplace (like corruption unfortunately) here that I suspect there was a decent P4P scene in Argentina say 50 or 100 years ago. Widespread and widely accepted prostitution seems to be as much a part of Argentine culture as drinking mate and futbol (almost)! The current P4P scene in Santiago, Chile is fairly decent in my opinion, but I am using the US scene as a reference there so almost everywhere seems good by comparison.

Although religion may not be the greatest factor, Argentina seems to be very "unreligious". Most Argentines may be baptized Catholic, as am I, but in 5 years here I don't think I have ever personally known someone that went to church, not even once! (except maybe for a wedding). Many/most people I know here mock the church and are quite liberal socially & politically. Again I find it hard to believe that nations/societies can make such fundamental changes to their customs and beliefs in so little time. Possibly the people's ability to freely express their beliefs has changed since the dictatorship but the beliefs themselves have not?

-As an Argentinian who live (d) in North America, it is positively true that Argentinian girls are much more "human" than women raised north of the border.

"Human" - you could not have said it any better! US expat guys speculate all the time about why US women are so horrible – materialism, Puritanism, feminazi-ism, etc. As an Argentine man who apparently has spent a lot of time in North America, do you have a simple theory? My short theory is that Argentines, men & women alike, simply tend to be much less aggressive and more gracious & laidback than their US counterparts. As a result, the women (I mean nonpros) here are much less bitchy and demanding and a lot easier to meet and score. And I almost forgot, 90% of them are a helluva lot prettier and sexier than the US "warhogs"!

Cheers,

Moore

[Goblin]

Yes it is a big price to pay especially the food unless you dine at high end restaurants every day. Worst thing is in small towns you can not eat out at all period or find decent groceries for that matter. Or try travelling through there. Yuk.

The women are also almost unbearable in every department.

I go to specialty shops and organic health food stores and cook at home. If Argentina had good business opportunities I would learn Spanish and move there permanently and that's just on a vacationers first impression.

I'll be heading back there again early in the New Year.

Till then.

Goblin.

Goblin:

- Some professions were cornered by women in Argentina. Many men still study at the university, but a greater percentage of women do so.

Also, don't get fooled by automatically relating studying at the university and making a career. Not necessarily all women seeks a career after studying. I know many that finished their studies, got the diploma, got pregnant and devoted to raise kids.

- Question 2 is too fuzzy, Depends on social class, education, etc. In my environment (intellectual middle to upper middle class) women have at least the same leading role than men (if not more) Men used to treat women with respect, and vice versa. For working class, it may not be the case.

- I do not live anymore in Argentina. I live in a North American city and make twice or three times more money than what I did in BA working for the same industrial sector. I pay a price for that (higher prices, worse food, North American women attitudes, cultural shallowness, etc) but after all, nothing is for free in life.

My case is special, and I cannot explain it without revealing myself. Sorry for being sneaky.

- P4P in Argentina is a pretty recent phenomenum. Before 1984, the country was as Catholic-conservative as today's Chile. Little by little the society lightened up and freed from the conservative frame. Today, 22 years later, things are radically different than by then.

Hope this helps,

Andres

[Andres]

Hello Andres.

The education statistics are really fascinating to me, why are women taking more of an interest in education than men? This is puzzling. Does that mean women of the middle and upper class in Argentina are taking a leadership role in raising their families while men care only about themselves?

How do the men of argentina typicall treat a woman, what is their attitude towards them and what is the attitude of women towards argentinian men?

On the salary side of things considering the cost of living it would be possible to support yourself on this kind of salary but if you wanted to support a family with children well that would be next to impossible. So a single woman without an education supporting several kids on her own would be in big big trouble.

Even 1000 ARS is only about $350.00 US dollars a month. Good crap I says, that is not good enough as an upper end representation of average income even with Argentina prices. That means most people there are scrambing for money. What do you do for a living? Did you say you once lived in America but now back in Argentina?

I have good information that the crash of 2000 was caused by the IMF acting on provisions of international loans agreements because the Argentine government was fighting the internationalists. This would explain both the good disposition of the people and the country's poverty. It's really a shame that the country has to pay such a high price to retain its identity.

It still appears to me that the P4P's are born out of cultural, economic, and demographic realities.

I tell you one thing though, the character of many a working girl in Argentina is higher than what you find in your average North American skank.

Then we have the working girls of North America - well that's another story.

Goblin

Goblin:

- Some professions were cornered by women in Argentina. Many men still study at the university, but a greater percentage of women do so.

Also, don't get fooled by automatically relating studying at the university and making a career. Not necessarily all women seeks a career after studying. I know many that finished their studies, got the diploma, got pregnant and devoted to raise kids.

- Question 2 is too fuzzy, Depends on social class, education, etc. In my environment (intellectual middle to upper middle class) women have at least the same leading role than men (if not more) Men used to treat women with respect, and vice versa. For working class, it may not be the case.

- I do not live anymore in Argentina. I live in a North American city and make twice or three times more money than what I did in BA working for the same industrial sector. I pay a price for that (higher prices, worse food, North American women attitudes, cultural shallowness, etc) but after all, nothing is for free in life.

My case is special, and I cannot explain it without revealing myself. Sorry for being sneaky.

- P4P in Argentina is a pretty recent phenomenum. Before 1984, the country was as Catholic-conservative as today's Chile. Little by little the society lightened up and freed from the conservative frame. Today, 22 years later, things are radically different than by then.

Hope this helps,

Andres

[Goblin]

Already planning my next trip. Thanks for your advice but I don't fall in love that easily. It was my very first trip to a chica destination so I'm just doing a little online R&D to figure these women out.

Goblin.

Goblin.

My advice, which of course you may choose to ignore.

1) Come back to Argentina for at least a month.

2) Don't fall in love with the first hooker who is fun to be with, and if you do at least make it a point to see LOTS of other women as well.

3) ENJOY YOURSELF!

If you keep agonizing you will manage to make this un-fun, and that would be a shame!

And.

4) Stop posting about this - you are going to do what you are going to do - stop pretending that you will be able to control your little head with logic and reason. Save your posts for informative stuff.

David

[Capt Dave]

Goblin.

My advice, which of course you may choose to ignore.

1) Come back to Argentina for at least a month.

2) Don't fall in love with the first hooker who is fun to be with, and if you do at least make it a point to see LOTS of other women as well.

3) ENJOY YOURSELF!

If you keep agonizing you will manage to make this un-fun, and that would be a shame!

And.

4) Stop posting about this - you are going to do what you are going to do - stop pretending that you will be able to control your little head with logic and reason. Save your posts for informative stuff.

David

[Goblin]

I don't think they care that much about looks. I have seen very attractive women there with unattractive guys. The common denominator among them was their apparent attentiveness and attitude towards the woman and their general spiritual disposition.

Maybe the answer is in the study of argentinian men and the way they relate to women? A very good friend of mine who spent quite a bit of time in Argentina says that the men of Argentina a too mocho and that many women there can not handle this. I have not been able to verify this claim.

Anyway importing is definately out of the question for the reasons you have already stated although I would not refer to the process of this change as a form of evolution but rather a degeneration.

Living part time in Argentina might bring better prospects than a full time war hog back home.

Your average US divorce settlement will exceed the cost of any travelling expenses to Argentina including the cost of supporting someone there. Imagine what a mere $300.00 US a month will do for an Argentinia female. That's barely the cost of keeping your average US skank in underwear nowadays.

If she gets out of control you walk away, what do we have to lose?

Goblin.

Goblin.

I don't think you are naive. The exact same happened to me on my last trip.

I was there about a month ago and I am still in contact with the girl today. I am sincerely hoping that we stay in touch until I am there again in May.

I was pretty skeptical at first but am really surprised to find out that she came through with all her promises to remain in touch with me once I returned home. I spent 5 of 7 nights with her. And I knew she wasnt faking her feelings for me when she started meeting me outside of the boliche. Unlike you we did not have hours of tears upon my depature, but we did spend quite a bit of time alone and it very similar to saying goodbye to a real girlfriend. GFE was also an understatement for me as she wasn't really faking anything.

I also realize that this is a very pretty girl, and there are many attractive men in argentina. So why is she that interested in me? Not that I'm ugly. But this girl is from a poor background in the provincias and I have money and I know that this is a major component of it. So while I have no problem with giving her "gifts" while I am there, I do have limits. I won't spend more on her than I would with any other hooker. On the other hand, the service she provides to me is so good that it is worth it in my opinion. My only advice to you is. Just be cautious. Don't get pussy whipped and then get suckered into giving her large sums of money. You hear too many stories of guys falling in love with hookers and getting dumped as soon as the girl doesn't need the guy anymore. These girls are very talented at manipluating feelings of affection, so I say enjoy it, just don't become a sucker. Also, don't listen to the guys that will post that it isn't possible to have real genuine feelings with a hooker. I was in your shoes and I know it is possible. And they are just a bunch of jaded assholes.

And my future plans with her have nothing to do with a normal relationship. I plan to have fun with her, perhaps spend a lot of time with her rather than frequenting the boliches, and leave it at that. I think it would be a little stupid on my part to have expectations for a normal relationship. I suggest you nip those types of thoughts now if you are having them. So enjoy the genuine connection but just do not start getting serious about her. From everything I've heard, it's a bad idea to bring foreign women into the USA to marry them. They seem to just evolve into typical AW's. And. Do you plan to live in Argentina? Probably not. So exactly what type of serioius relationship could realistically occur even if you wanted it to?

So in conclusion, just remember that a big reason she probably likes you is because you're a rich gringo. Just don't let her use that against you in the long run.

[Goblin]

Well to be honest I am in the experimentation stage right now. I know that such a prospect represents monumental obstacles and the only reason I am even experimenting with the idea is because I am beginning to believe that a relationship with an American warhog is even more impossible.

Really every woman in North America has developed herself into a different cultural reality by virtue of the varying ideologies that have been woven in our fragmented society. To be truthful I feel even more foreign in the company of our woman.

It would also be alot eaiser to protect your assets from a failed Argentina relationship.

Goblin.

Relationships between people with different socio-economic backgrounds are hard. Relationships between people from different cultures are even harder. But then almost all worthwhile relationships involve risks and hard work.

That's not a license to be either blind or stupid but you are the only one here that knows if the reward is worth the risk. The percentages might be against you but probability is not certainty. Just remember that hope is not a plan and that a relationship based on your money and her economic need is unlikely to be the basis of anything lasting.

Suerte!

[Goblin]

That is true, these dynamics would represent difficult and unusual challenges to the relationhip not to mention that it could be used as a weapon against her in every disagreement.

Mind you, the difficulties you are pointing out are also very prevalent in regular North American relationships, in fact most of my friends have experienced women who retaliation fuck their friends or who are concerned about their ability to complete sexually with younger women.

But yes it would pose horrendous challenges and most likely fail for these reasons.

Goblin.

OK, my two cents.

I do not know of a single succesful relationship between anyone I know and a woman who is or has been in the sex business. This includes me, of course, and I have tried on several occasiones (including 1 ex-wife) because I really didn't think it bothered me what she had done previously (in fact, on one level it sometimes turned me on a little) Sex is an important part of any relationship I have ever had, and sex workers can make great partners!

However, the fact is that, in my experience, once a woman has experienced professional sex, it is very difficult (read impossible) for her to relate to men in any other way, and especially if you were ever one of her "clients" she will never believe that you have given up your wicked ways and aren't going to dump her for the next younger / prettier babe to come down the line (which in fact you very well may!

She will also never be able to get angry with you without recognizing and often excersizing the option to screw the first guy she sees, frequently one of your friends / acquantences.

There is no reason why you can't have a nice (and hot) semi-temporary relationship with your favorite prostitute, but don't make the mistake of thinking she is your once-and-forever sweetheart because one or both of you is going to screw it up!

David

[Goblin]

Hello.

Fantasy Foreign Romance or FFR. This term is really worthy of inclusion into the abbreviations section of this site. I suppose you are right and that is why I am seeking input from the experts before doing anything further about this situation.

Although in all honesty this girl did not charge much and did not appear to be particularly sophisticated to me. She requested $200.00 pesos initially for a session but I gave her $100.00 US. She did speak English but poorly and communicating was difficult.

Anyway you are probably right and I will soon find out if I am being suckered and I will report back with the result. I have launched a full scale investigation into the matter.

I should point out though that I am not married, I do not currently own a home, and that I am self employed with enough flexibility to remain absent from the US for months or even years at a time.

Goblin.

[Capt Dave]

OK, my two cents.

I do not know of a single succesful relationship between anyone I know and a woman who is or has been in the sex business. This includes me, of course, and I have tried on several occasiones (including 1 ex-wife) because I really didn't think it bothered me what she had done previously (in fact, on one level it sometimes turned me on a little) Sex is an important part of any relationship I have ever had, and sex workers can make great partners!

However, the fact is that, in my experience, once a woman has experienced professional sex, it is very difficult (read impossible) for her to relate to men in any other way, and especially if you were ever one of her "clients" she will never believe that you have given up your wicked ways and aren't going to dump her for the next younger / prettier babe to come down the line (which in fact you very well may!

She will also never be able to get angry with you without recognizing and often excersizing the option to screw the first guy she sees, frequently one of your friends / acquantences.

There is no reason why you can't have a nice (and hot) semi-temporary relationship with your favorite prostitute, but don't make the mistake of thinking she is your once-and-forever sweetheart because one or both of you is going to screw it up!

David

[Jackson]

Hi Goblin,

What you experienced was a Fantasy Foreign Romance, which should not be confused with a Real Foreign Romance.

A Fantasy Foreign Romance is a prolonged illusionary GFE experience that can only be provided by a relatively small number of skilled practioners who are generally charming, attractive, intelligent, educated, bi-lingual, and well compensated for their time.

I've known a few FFR providers here in Buenos Aires over the years. As a BA resident I'm not a target of their schemes, but I've come to observe their tactics. They generally stroll for their targets in non-traditional venues such as tourist restaurants, bars, cafes, etc. as well as on the internet, where they can develop and then later nurture their fantasy foreign romance clients.

Experienced FFR providers tend to target guys who are in long-term marriges as they are more likely to be starved (and thus responsive to) affection, as opposed to the standard sport fucker who's just looking for sex.

FFR providers are accomplished liars, which is understandable as their job requires them to immersed themselves in their target's life for several days at a time without accidentally divulging any of their many secrets (married, children, true age, etc.) or otherwise "blowing their cover".

One of the best quotes I've ever heard from a FFR provider while describing her email strategies was "I never ask them to send me money, I just tell them that I'm having a [fill in the blank] problem and I wait until they offer to help. If they don't send me money, I just cut them off for a few days until they change their attitude, which they always do".

The dissappointing issue for me is recognizing how many guys come to BA, meet a FFR provider, fail to recognize that it's just a paid performance, and instead fall completely in love while making complete fools of themselves calling and emailing several times a day, plying them with gifts, sending them flowers, and of course, sending them money, all of which motivates me to write this report.

A Real Foreign Romance is exactly as written, but it can only be achieved after you have:

1. Quit your job.
2. Divorced your wife.
3. Sold your home.
4. Moved to Argentina.

If you believe that you are involved in a Real Foreign Romance and you have not acomplished everything in the above list, then you are in fact experiencing a Fantasy Foreign Romance and you should govern yourself accordingly.

One man's observation.

Thanks,

Jackson

[Goblin]

Hello Andres.

The education statistics are really fascinating to me, why are women taking more of an interest in education than men? This is puzzling. Does that mean women of the middle and upper class in Argentina are taking a leadership role in raising their families while men care only about themselves?

How do the men of argentina typicall treat a woman, what is their attitude towards them and what is the attitude of women towards argentinian men?

On the salary side of things considering the cost of living it would be possible to support yourself on this kind of salary but if you wanted to support a family with children well that would be next to impossible. So a single woman without an education supporting several kids on her own would be in big big trouble.

Even 1000 ARS is only about $350.00 US dollars a month. Good crap I says, that is not good enough as an upper end representation of average income even with Argentina prices. That means most people there are scrambing for money. What do you do for a living? Did you say you once lived in America but now back in Argentina?

I have good information that the crash of 2000 was caused by the IMF acting on provisions of international loans agreements because the Argentine government was fighting the internationalists. This would explain both the good disposition of the people and the country's poverty. It's really a shame that the country has to pay such a high price to retain its identity.

It still appears to me that the P4P's are born out of cultural, economic, and demographic realities.

I tell you one thing though, the character of many a working girl in Argentina is higher than what you find in your average North American skank.

Then we have the working girls of North America - well that's another story.

Goblin