American Politics during the Obama Presidency

[Rev BS]

There's no point in arguing, you believe Singapore is a basket case while I perceive it as an economic miracle. I don't think Obama or you are evil. You both exhibit smug, misplaced moral superiority because you think you're right and you think people like me are greedy. I'm tempted to say in another time you and he would be happy fellow travelers, following in the footsteps of other Bolsheviks and Maoists. But it's really a matter of degree. You and Obama actually are more like left of center Europeans, and your policies fortunately would just result in economic stagnation, not starvation.

America is about diversity, but we are so fragmented today. There is so much mistrust, even hatred. The misunderstanding between you & me can easily be taken care of over a cup of coffee.

Greed is a component we meet every day, more often than not, I am greedy myself. Like cholesterol, there is good greed and bad greed. I would say, 99% of our actions & thoughts are based on self benefit and greed. So I think the biggest issue with you & Obama is "distribution of wealth". Here in Bangkok, when Thais get together, and when the bill gets a little excessive, the better-off people would take care of the larger portion of the bill. Nothing has to be said, no face is left a little red. When we come to Americans, well, end of story.

Singapore, of course, is a miracle story. Once upon a time in a gone-forever Singapore, I lived in a house with no flushing toilet, electricity, paved road, garbage collection, not to mention, money. I looked upon this time with fondness and nostalgia, life was so simple. And now walking down bustling Orchard Road, as I said before, the only thing left in Singapore to do for free, is fart.

And so, our debate is not about our ability to solve any issue, it is to create dialogue that can show that we have more in common than otherwise.

[Tiny12]

As Tres3 pointed out, at an earlier point, it is possible you were paying even more taxes. Yet America and you were able to thrive and be successful. And the prosperity of America was the resultant middle class that is the envy of the world. Now that world is shrinking. So you want to blame Obama, fine. He is not perfect, he is not the Messiah. I do not agree with all his policies. But he is just trying his best, and not too many people want to help him. They only want to benefit themselves. He is not trying to destroy America, Americans are destroying themselves quite well, thank you.

But what I don't get is that intensity of hate that to me is so unjustified & unreal. So much so, he has been called Evil, Communist, Racist, Muslim and more. Yet the same people are doing well, have more than enough for a good life, and is not hurting. Amazing. I don't want to dig too deep here, it might reveal some real ugliness.

Tres, Unbelievable. Now I'm a racist. I'm no defender of Bush, he's the second or third worst US President during my adult life. But you don't think those on the left came after him every bit as hard as those on the right have gone after Obama? So why didn't you vote for Obama? Maybe you're a racist too?

Black Shirt, Now thanks to Obama I will pay less in taxes, because I'm not working. Why work 12 hours a day and reinvest in my business when 50% of my incremental income goes to the federal and state governments. Plus 40% of what I own when I die plus 8% of what I purchase plus 2-1/2% per year of the value of any real estate I own. The effective tax rate on my income is however now approximately 20% higher than it was under any previous president. I actually don't begrudge state and local governments getting their take, because they provide value for the money. Nor do I think Clinton was a bad president. Yes he raised the federal marginal rate to 39.6% (versus 43.4% now). However he balanced the budget, unlike Obama who has flushed massive quantities of money down the toilet.

There's no point in arguing, you believe Singapore is a basket case while I perceive it as an economic miracle. I don't think Obama or you are evil. You both exhibit smug, misplaced moral superiority because you think you're right and you think people like me are greedy. I'm tempted to say in another time you and he would be happy fellow travelers, following in the footsteps of other Bolsheviks and Maoists. But it's really a matter of degree. You and Obama actually are more like left of center Europeans, and your policies fortunately would just result in economic stagnation, not starvation.

[Tres3]

As Tres3 pointed out, at an earlier point, it is possible you were paying even more taxes. Yet America and you were able to thrive and be successful. And the prosperity of America was the resultant middle class that is the envy of the world. Now that world is shrinking. So you want to blame Obama, fine. He is not perfect, he is not the Messiah. I do not agree with all his policies. But he is just trying his best, and not too many people want to help him. They only want to benefit themselves. He is not trying to destroy America, Americans are destroying themselves quite well, thank you.

But what I don't get is that intensity of hate that to me is so unjustified & unreal. So much so, he has been called Evil, Communist, Racist, Muslim and more. Yet the same people are doing well, have more than enough for a good life, and is not hurting. Amazing. I don't want to dig too deep here, it might reveal some real ugliness.

I hate to say this because it will garner an angry, knee jerk, unintelligent retort, but there is a group of people in the USA that is still fighting the Civil War, and cannot accept the notion that a black (albeit half black) man was elected President, not once, but twice. BTW, I am a white male who did not vote for Obama in either election, but also believe that the majority of the people who voted have spoken. I often disagree with Obama, but he is the duly elected President, and we are a nation of laws, no matter how imperfect.

Tres3.

[Member #4112]

Slippery like an eel, trying to change the subject from tax cuts to taxes.

Just like with the umbrella, the Bush Tax Cuts and their extension were provided and accepted without force, at least for people who want tax cuts. In your case Doppel, the extension over 2011-12, along with the payroll tax holiday, saved you approximately $19,400 compared to what you would have paid without Obama's legislation.

How about acknowledging, yes you appreciate that Obama did that.

Esten, you sound like a broken record.

I'm wasting my breath / typing on a person who deems maintaining current tax rates is a "cut".

As I have already demonstrated your $19+K number is total BS.

With your boy bouncing from scandal to scandal I guess this is the best you've got.

[Rev BS]

Apparently this parable stuff Esten started doesn't work worth a crap, because your conclusion is the same as mine. When the marginal federal + state income tax rate on small business is 50%, like it is now, or 90% or whatever, money is channeled from its most productive uses into things like tax shelters. The marginal tax rate on large U.S. corporations is around 40%, depending on the state, but they on average actually only pay 16%. That's because they have armies of tax attorneys and accountants and lobbyists. I guess it's good they do since the US corporate rate is the highest in the world and otherwise they couldn't compete. But how does small business, the engine of American entrepenuership, compete with that, without the legions of lawyers and lobbyists? Your flat tax solution sounds good to me.

As Tres3 pointed out, at an earlier point, it is possible you were paying even more taxes. Yet America and you were able to thrive and be successful. And the prosperity of America was the resultant middle class that is the envy of the world. Now that world is shrinking. So you want to blame Obama, fine. He is not perfect, he is not the Messiah. I do not agree with all his policies. But he is just trying his best, and not too many people want to help him. They only want to benefit themselves. He is not trying to destroy America, Americans are destroying themselves quite well, thank you.

But what I don't get is that intensity of hate that to me is so unjustified & unreal. So much so, he has been called Evil, Communist, Racist, Muslim and more. Yet the same people are doing well, have more than enough for a good life, and is not hurting. Amazing. I don't want to dig too deep here, it might reveal some real ugliness.

[Tiny12]

It seems you are hurting real bad, tell us what is was like under Clinton, then Bush. Or even before that. If you are at that level of taxation, you are not hurting for your basic needs? Or are you? I may be wrong, but people with high incomes were being taxed at close to 50% once upon a time. Tax shelters galore sprang up. So, enlighten us who are not in your oxygen deprived orbit.

By the way, I favor a flat tax. For most of my working life, I paid around 27-29%.

Apparently this parable stuff Esten started doesn't work worth a crap, because your conclusion is the same as mine. When the marginal federal + state income tax rate on small business is 50%, like it is now, or 90% or whatever, money is channeled from its most productive uses into things like tax shelters. The marginal tax rate on large U.S. corporations is around 40%, depending on the state, but they on average actually only pay 16%. That's because they have armies of tax attorneys and accountants and lobbyists. I guess it's good they do since the US corporate rate is the highest in the world and otherwise they couldn't compete. But how does small business, the engine of American entrepenuership, compete with that, without the legions of lawyers and lobbyists? Your flat tax solution sounds good to me.

[Tres3]

[QUOTE=BlackShirt;434727][QUOTE=Tres3;434724]

It people with high incomes were being taxed at close to 50% once upon a time.


Thanks, I am just a youngster, I don't go that far back.

I guess I am guilty of showing my age. Ugh! At least back then I was young enough and did not earn enough to pay the 90% rate.

Tres3

[Member #4112]

It was in the 50's and 60's we had rates that high and it was John Kennedy who reduced them.

Obama is not necessarily evil but believes the United States is too powerful and should be "equal with other nations" and not superior to them. He likes the European model as a way to put the United States in our "place".

While Obama is not responsible for Detroit going into bankruptcy, Detroit is a classic case demonstrating what Obama's dream for America will be.

Obama reminds me a lot of Chauncey Gardner from Being There.

[Esten]

There is a great difference between individuals voluntarily offering assistance to others and “government” forcing individuals to pay for assistance the “government” deems necessary, so your parable falls a bit flat.

Slippery like an eel, trying to change the subject from tax cuts to taxes.

Just like with the umbrella, the Bush Tax Cuts and their extension were provided and accepted without force, at least for people who want tax cuts. In your case Doppel, the extension over 2011-12, along with the payroll tax holiday, saved you approximately $19,400 compared to what you would have paid without Obama's legislation.

How about acknowledging, yes you appreciate that Obama did that.

[Rev BS]

[QUOTE=Tres3;434724][QUOTE=BlackShirt;434721]It people with high incomes were being taxed at close to 50% once upon a time.

You are wrong. At one time people with high incomes were being taxed at a 90% marginal rate.

Tres3

Thanks, I am just a youngster, I don't go that far back.

[Tres3]

It people with high incomes were being taxed at close to 50% once upon a time.

You are wrong. At one time people with high incomes were being taxed at a 90% marginal rate.

Tres3

[Rev BS]

[QUOTE=DonB;434697]

One reason why I think Obama is evil>
"Indeed, the scary part is that Detroit is what Obama
wants to fundamentally transform America into: a place
where wealth is redistributed, not created, and where
government picks winners and losers in an economy in
which we all ultimately lose."

A quote from:
http://news.investors.com/print/ibd-editorials/071913-664483-detroit-bankruptcy-caused-by-unions-government.aspx

How about citing your quote and I never heard of Tavis Smiley. Cheney has nothing to do with my opinion of Obama.
Don B

About your psychological make-up. Forget about Tavis Smiley, he is not worth your time. It is just to note you are not the only one Obama is making sucidal.

Back to point #1, so Detroit went bankrupt because of Obama? In that same vein, 9-11 was Bush's fault. That is your premise? Yeah, right. Wish they would have lined up all those bankers in front of a firing squad.

[Rev BS]

"Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business—you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen."

And that somebody is Barack Hussein Obama. Thank you President Obama. Thank you for taxing my income at 43.4%. While I also pay state and local taxes amounting to an additional 15% of my income, the federal taxes warm my heart, because I'm giving and receiving nothing in return. This has caused me to achieve true enlightenment. Thank you for all the government forms that I enjoy filling out. Thank you for the tens of thousands of pages of federal regulations and laws, especially the senseless ones and the ones that can send me away to jail for a year or two if I don't know about them, for they keep me excited and at my sharpest. Thank you dear President, for you bend me over and you fuck me in the ass, and I love you for it.

O.K., parables aside, what President Obama really wants to do is take "this unbelievable American system" and make it just like Europe, complete with high unemployment and stagnant economic growth. He wants to screw over the successful small businessman, because like Esten he thinks the guy will spend his free cash flow on yachts, champagne and Cadillacs instead of reinvesting it. And President Obama also believes a dollar flushed down the toilet by Washington is much more valuable than a dollar invested in the private sector. Unless of course it's government that's directing where that dollar goes within the private sector, like growing corn for ethanol or loaning money to homeowners that can't afford their monthly mortgage payments.

It seems you are hurting real bad, tell us what is was like under Clinton, then Bush. Or even before that. If you are at that level of taxation, you are not hurting for your basic needs? Or are you? I may be wrong, but people with high incomes were being taxed at close to 50% once upon a time. Tax shelters galore sprang up. So, enlighten us who are not in your oxygen deprived orbit.

By the way, I favor a flat tax. For most of my working life, I paid around 27-29%.

[Tiny12]

When they arrived at D's workplace, having noticed that D had not yet expressed any thanks, the new stranger asked, "Sir, I hope you appreciate that you were able to continue walking under my umbrella, so that you never got wet."

"Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business—you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen."

And that somebody is Barack Hussein Obama. Thank you President Obama. Thank you for taxing my income at 43.4%. While I also pay state and local taxes amounting to an additional 15% of my income, the federal taxes warm my heart, because I'm giving and receiving nothing in return. This has caused me to achieve true enlightenment. Thank you for all the government forms that I enjoy filling out. Thank you for the tens of thousands of pages of federal regulations and laws, especially the senseless ones and the ones that can send me away to jail for a year or two if I don't know about them, for they keep me excited and at my sharpest. Thank you dear President, for you bend me over and you fuck me in the ass, and I love you for it.

O.K., parables aside, what President Obama really wants to do is take "this unbelievable American system" and make it just like Europe, complete with high unemployment and stagnant economic growth. He wants to screw over the successful small businessman, because like Esten he thinks the guy will spend his free cash flow on yachts, champagne and Cadillacs instead of reinvesting it. And President Obama also believes a dollar flushed down the toilet by Washington is much more valuable than a dollar invested in the private sector. Unless of course it's government that's directing where that dollar goes within the private sector, like growing corn for ethanol or loaning money to homeowners that can't afford their monthly mortgage payments.

[Member #4112]

Esten, you are dealing in parables now?

There is a great difference between individuals voluntarily offering assistance to others and “government” forcing individuals to pay for assistance the “government” deems necessary, so your parable falls a bit flat.

Some of us have the good sense to come in out of the rain, do you?


Need I say where the umbrella should be placed?

Have a great day Esten.