The Catholic Church in Argentina

[SimpleWrangler]

Spanish or Castellano it's the same language.

The original name was Castellano, a romance (post latin) language from Castilla. La Mancha in Spain.

They switched the name to Español (Spanish) because they had separatist regions in Spain such as Catalans, Gallegos, Vascos.

So, as a way to unify the country and stop those claims the crown opened the "real academia española de la lengua" (RAE).

But this happened years after the Rioplatense evolved, Argentina kept the old forms of Castellano (like vos instead of tu) and mixed it with other languages some words are more familiar for Italians while correct in Castellano, not common in Spain.

[Tres3]

And even the Spanish have a hard time understanding the Rioplatense dialect...

For those of you that are confused, Rioplatenese and Lunfardo are essentially the same. There are so many different words in Lunfardo, that I have seen bookstores in BA that sell dictionaries that purport to translate Lunfardo to "regular" Spanish. I have traveled throughout Hispano America, and have found that the Colombians and educated Peruvians speak the the purest Spanish, and Portenos speak the most bastardized. What is frustrating is that educated Portenos are taught proper Spanish in school and can understand "regular" Spanish, but they persist in speaking Lunfardo to someone who is not a native Porteno.

Since El Queso mentioned the word coger, I will tell an old joke.

A Spaniard asked a Porteno "Como coger un taxi?" (How do I catch a cab?

The Porteno replied "Tal vez por el tubo de escape" (Maybe by the exhaust pipe).

Tres3.

[El Queso]

Castellano is one of 3 primary dialects of Spanish from Spain (also having a few others). In English we call it Castilian, but it's supposedly the basis (according to my high school Spanish teacher) of Spanish in Latin America, though obviously there are great differences among the various regions as well and no one outside of northern and central Spain (the origin of Castellano dialect) probably speaks "Castellano".

In fact, I noticed a number of sites talking about the various dialects and they call the dialect spoken here "Rioplatense". Of course, it has a basis in Castellano, but it is not Castellano. Quite aside from the accent differences, there are small things like the meanings of words such as "coger". In actual Castellano it means "pick up, gather", etc. Here, it means (or at least is used as) "fuck" and they use the word "recoger" here to mean pretty much the same thing as "coger" means in Spain. I have heard a few funny anecdotes about Spaniards using the word here according to Castellano and not Rioplatense and as you could imagine it might cause some embarrassment. "Fresa" versus "Frutilla" (strawberries) is another one that pops up right off the bat. There are many, many more.

Of course, there has always been a running joke between the English and Americans (and probably even Australians, New Zealanders, South Africans etc) as to who speaks the correct form of "English" but we all know it's different in many aspects. I don't think there are very many Americans who think they actually speak "true" English (although I am sure there are some!). I think the same goes for Castellano except for one thing - the Argentinos seem to me to be quite serious when they say they speak Castellano as Rioplatense being the standard and not true Castellano.

My example of the girls in school here is primary. I remember in high school we had a couple of foreign exchange students from England with us for part of a year. We all loved their accents and the words they used, and the last thing we would have thought of would be to tell them they had to start talking like Americans because their form of speech was vulgar and incorrect. That's the attitude our girls get in school for speaking (what seems to me, maybe because I'm a bit prejudiced to my family) a much more clear form of Spanish.

In fact, I was taught in school to call the language Español and not Castellano, as Castellano is specifically the dialect spoken in Spain. When working with Mexicans and discussing the language it was always called Español. Seems the Porteños really like the idea of being Spanish or Italian (or even English) and rarely South American. Well, except when they want to give us a hard time for calling ourselves Americans (those of us from the US obviously).

And even the Spanish have a hard time understanding the Rioplatense dialect...

[Gandolf50]

Not sure what your point is there Gandolf? 'Castilian' is just the anglicized way of saying 'Castellano', so they're exactly the same word.

I think you're mixing up 'Castellano' with 'Porteño'. They claim to speak Castellano / Castilian here, but as you rightly point out, it can be quite unintelligible to a native continental Spanish speaker.

Castilian (and its very possible I misspelled it) Is "proper Spanish" something that the Portenos DON'T speak. The people in Cordoba speak a much closer version then here in the capital. But then a "Porteno" will say that Castellano is the only correct form of Spanish. Another Porteno missconception.

[DavieW]

One note from my point of view, Castilian and Castellano are not the same by a long shot. Some one who speaks proper Castilian Spanish would have a hard time understanding a Porteno who speaks Castellano and vice versa. I have not met many people outside of the upper class from Span who do speak that way.

Not sure what your point is there Gandolf? 'Castilian' is just the anglicized way of saying 'Castellano', so they're exactly the same word.

I think you're mixing up 'Castellano' with 'Porteño'. They claim to speak Castellano / Castilian here, but as you rightly point out, it can be quite unintelligible to a native continental Spanish speaker.

[Gandolf50]

Yeah, actually we're looking at figuring out what the deal is here. It's a strange situation.



This, while Porteños proudly declare that they speak Castilian (Castellano) and often insult my sisters-in-law in school because they don't. What they are really talking about is the accent and sometimes different vocabulary and anyone who lives here and speaks Spanish may find themselves under attack because they don't use the same words and tone that Porteños use, even when fluent (or nearly so). Particularly if they are "Paraguayas sucias" as my sisters-in-law are called here by their fellow classmates.

There is a difference between hate of a culture and understanding and not liking a culture (or particular aspects thereof).

Ok, back to trying to fix this thread :)

One note from my point of view, Castilian and Castellano are not the same by a long shot. Some one who speaks proper Castilian Spanish would have a hard time understanding a Porteno who speaks Castellano and vice versa. I have not met many people outside of the upper class from Span who do speak that way.

[DavieW]

I'm always telling guys on another forum I moderate, the way to get rid of a troll is to ignore them you never get rid of trolls by engaging them.

Get rid of? I'm enjoying the debate. I want more!
I'm hoping to be educated, to learn more about this wonderful culture and amazing people.
But most of all, I want to learn how to worship the pope, Gawd bless 'im.

El Queso - great post. Far more eloquently put than my random bleatings!

[Daddy Rulz]

I'm always telling guys on another forum I moderate, the way to get rid of a troll is to ignore them you never get rid of trolls by engaging them. From this point on, that annoying sound I have heard here is now water off a ducks ass.

I too was raised as a Catholic (I've gotten 5 of the 6 sacraments a lay person can have) and with the exception of some genuinely holy priests I've had the good fortune to meet, they are some evil fucks.

DR.

[El Queso]

So this thread is upside down compared to all the others?

Actually, more accurately. This thread is the only one that's the right way up!

Yeah, actually we're looking at figuring out what the deal is here. It's a strange situation.

And looking over the comments in this thread, I find I agree about 100% with you on your comments.

I've met you a few times (I'm the guy who does the grilling on those rare occasions you come to our dinners, in case you don't remember me by my user name here), don't know the other guy making those defensive/accusatory comments. I know it takes living here a bit of time to understand how cockeyed the Porteño culture can be and you and I are one of the few on this board who have kids mixed into the culture as well, which provides no better manner of understanding the culture than singles or couples who live here without children can understand. I've been here just a gnat's ass longer than you it would seem - this month I celebrate my 7th year.

But even aside from the "Porteño Question", your comments about the Catholic Church are spot on as well, which is verifiable by having paid attention in history class in school (except possibly in a predominantly Catholic country), and watching the news on occasion.

As for the other comments about the Norse discovering the North American continent (in relation to European discoverers and not ancient Asian travelers having crossed the Bering Strait between 4000 and 2000 years ago), very accurate and very interesting history. However, it was indeed the Spanish (and Portuguese) who primarily first colonized Central and South America, meaning the Norse explorers and colonists didn't have the same impact that the Spanish did because their colonies had pretty much died out by the time the Spanish had started colonizing and it was other European powers who began colonizing in the north.

At the time of the "Age of Discovery" the Catholic church was heavily influenced by Spain. Indeed the Pope granted the right to Portugal and Spain to all the lands in the new world, and granted the right to place the heathen not converted to Christianity (i.e., enemies of the Church) into slavery. The Church was looking to bring the whole world into the folds of the Church.

Of course, we're all humans and humans as a whole have done a great amount of injust things in the world throughout our history. I'm not giving a pass to any other European or American countries and the way they acted historically in relation to religion, indigenous people and the slave trade. However, one has to wonder if some of the ideals from the Catholic Church and Spain didn't have something to do with the way in which Central and South America, and the southern parts of the North American continent, developed over the proceeding centuries.

I've been to the Vatican and was blown away by its ostentatious display of wealth. I remember going up on the roof of the Vatican near the Cupola and encountering a tourist shop selling things such as bottle openers with the pope's image on it (I bought one for a souvenir, don't remember what I did with it!). I couldn't get in to see the Cistine Chapel at the time as it was undergoing renovations (would have been about '98 if I remember correctly) but I saw a lot of other art and treasures all over the place.

I think of past popes who sold salvation to the rich and powerful in Europe, the more modern problem of priests buggering kids, I remember the wealth I saw at the Vatican. I think about the way the Church has changed in recent decades to make itself more appealing to the masses so that it doesn't continue to lose membership, wondering if they are the vicars of god on this planet why they would have to change to keep membership and if that would really be god's will, or more likely the will of imperfect humans who feel it necessary to maintain their power in a world that may not feel the same about religion that it once did.

I keep wondering how many people the Church could help if it wasn't worried about keeping their power and wealth. I wonder what Jesus would think about all of this, but I think of Jesus maybe more like the Jews did, a man suposedly descended from the House of David who was to be the leader of the Jewish people in their struggles against the Roman Empire, not a god in his own right that the later Christian emperor of Rome helped to make him out to be in order to bring many of the Roman citizens into the fold of Christianity in later centuries.

How many people walk by the bigger Catholic Churches here and don't see at least one beggar sitting in his chair, wheelchair or sitting on the ground begging for alms?

I'm very Libertarian and believe that people have a personal responsibility for themselves and the rest is personal choice. Personally, I feel it is very important to help our fellow man, but only those worthy of being helped, and even individuals who make that choice sometimes choose wrong. But there is one organization that just seems geared to keeping people right where they are while espousing charity and kindness, feed their members a line about accepting their fate until they die and are accepted by god into his kingdom, and urge those around them to be charitable while concentrating a large portion of wealth and power in a small city-state in Italy.

Don't get me wrong, I'm about as irreligious as one can be (i.e., not trying to just pick on the Catholic Church), I think all religions are inherently evil in this day and age (not trying to insult anyone's beliefs, but these are mine). I think that in the distant past, before humans developed science to explain the world and developed systems of ethics and such, religion was probably a necessary thing and did some good in creating order and stability. But like royalty, churches leading nations and peoples should be be a thing of the past and the membership of such institutions the individual right of people, not something to be threatened with for not joining (as in you're going to Hell if you don't follow us and do at least most of what we tell you - i.e., we have the keys to eternal bliss and you're SOL otherwise).

I don't like the Catholic Church. I don't hate it, though I despise many of the things they have done in the name of "God" and the sheer hubris that makes them think one person elected by others in the same organization is good enough to declare "God's Will" on Earth and thereby given the mandate to subjgate billions of people with his (and never HER) opinion.

The Catholic Church here in Argentina, BTW, is much different than that in Paraguay. Where my wife's family is from, the local Catholic priest allows witch doctors to attend to his flock as much as any doctor and although almost all are Catholic in Paraguay (one of my wife's 9 aunts [populate the world! No birth control!] is actually Protestant, but the way they practice their form of Protestantism is really bizarre) they firmly believe in ghosts, witches, curses and seers and the Catholic Church does nothing to change that, instead adopting their values to allow them to enter the church. Those are the tactics the Romans and English (not only them, just off the top of my head) used in centuries past when conquering nations in order to ensure more tranquility amongst the conquered peoples.

BTW Caricoso (what you filled with? :) Carico, in Italian: "loaded, fraught, filled, charged"), when wondering about the value of someone's comments about BA, you are right to wonder about the amount of Spanish DavieW (or anyone else for that matter) speaks, how much time they have spent here and how much, therefore, they can understand the culture and how they canrelated with other cultures. Before you question me about my qualifications to opine on the sad state of Porteño culture and items such as the Catholic Church here, know that I learned Spanish first about 33 years ago, worked with Mexican labor crews for years during and after high school, and seven years ago, when I moved here for business reasons, renewed my Spanish skills. I consider myself nearly fluent in conversational Spanish (the more you know, the more you realize what exactly fluency means), perhaps much lesser so in IT-related technical Spanish (although I employ Argentinos as programmers, I insist they speak English for reasons of writing code and dealing with clients), and spend the majority of my days speaking to my family and neighbors and anyone else I encounter here in Spanish. Maybe it's one of the reasons I tend to write so much when I do write in English!

I have traveled to and stayed within Paraguay, and not just cities, but rather to places where there is little or no electricity, running water and other niceties of modern times. I have traveled extensively in north west Brasil over about 4 years, have spent time in Uruguay, Mexico, Venezuela and Trinidad-Tobago. Outside of Latin America I have spent quite a bit of time in Scotland, Ravenna, Italy and Singapore and a lesser amount of time in India, Angola, the Ivory Coast and Tunisia.

It took awhile living here for me to realize that Porteños are unique in their ways, and it took having two young ladies (two of my wife's younger sisters) in school here (private, Catholic) to really get it and even begin to have a small understanding of "why".

Caricoso, I don't know what nationality you are, but I can tell you, being American, I've been insulted here just because of that fact by people who can't even get their facts straight, and have been hated by some (here) for nothing more than that I'm an American (not by many to be sure). Sorry United Statesian. Er, USAn. Umm, Stater. I've been lectured here for calling myself American because people think we use that word to demean people here even when I've tried to explain we were here as a country with America in our name first and no other form of the English language really makes sense. It's the only Latin American country I've been in that is sensitive on this item, and mostly in Buenos Aires and surrounding areas (I lived nearly two year just ouside of Garin, near Pilar, about 40 clicks outside of the city). I travel outside of the environs of Buenos Aires (having driven north of here many times going to Paraguay, and having spent some time in Cordoba) and find that other parts of Argentina are significantly different than hee in Buenos Aires.

This, while Porteños proudly declare that they speak Castilian (Castellano) and often insult my sisters-in-law in school because they don't. What they are really talking about is the accent and sometimes different vocabulary and anyone who lives here and speaks Spanish may find themselves under attack because they don't use the same words and tone that Porteños use, even when fluent (or nearly so). Particularly if they are "Paraguayas sucias" as my sisters-in-law are called here by their fellow classmates.

There is a difference between hate of a culture and understanding and not liking a culture (or particular aspects thereof).

Ok, back to trying to fix this thread :)

[Don B]

Spain (a catholic empire), discovered America continent! You probably wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the "Latino Catholic" people.

Argentina, another country that is really free. No sex prison here! That's the reason that most of you guys are here, otherwise the closer you can get to sex is watching some porno on the computer.

What is for you a "predominately country" what is your definition?

Lief Ericson, a Norseman, was in North America around 970 over 500 years before Columbus, a Genoan, arrived. Columbus was looking for a route to the East Indies for commercial purposes so what does the Catholic Church have to do with it.

As far as any claims that religion has advanced man's progress I refer you to the following:

http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/...f-theology.asp

Don B.

[DavieW]

So this thread is upside down compared to all the others?



e2a: Fixed!

[DavieW]

You haven't apologized for what you said about the Catholic church. I assume that you will be banned from this site since our understanding (can't remember exactly the policy of Argentina Private), this is not a site that by any means one can insult or express his hate to others as you did.

Just waiting for what the administrator has to say.

This is what I said:

As far as the pope is concerned, I've got no idea if he's a good man or not, but the fact that he's now head of the most evil organization in the history of man doesn't exactly bode well. The Catholic church has been responsible for more wars and more human suffering than any government or so-called evil empire, ever. I had a Catholic upbringing as it happens. My secondary school was eventually closed down after most of the Christian Brothers who ran it were sent to jail for buggering the boarders. They make the Nazis look like naughty schoolboys.

"The Catholic church has been responsible for more wars and more human suffering than any government or so-called evil empire, ever." This is a verifiable FACT.

"My secondary school was eventually closed down after most of the Christian Brothers who ran it were sent to jail for buggering the boarders." Another verifiable FACT, not to mention the thousands of documented cases of Catholic priest pedophiles around the world. Bad enough in itself, but unforgiveable the way that previous popes have actively covered it up and let the guilty priests escape prosecution. Let's see if this new Argentine pope does something about it. Or will he turn his head also?

"They make the Nazis look like naughty schoolboys." That's my opinion, but having been raised and educated for 18 years as a Catholic, I'm fully entitled to express my opinion, in the same way as african-americans are free to use the "and" word and homosexuals are free to call each other queer.

I don't hate Catholics, most of my family are still Catholics. I hate the hierarchy of the Catholic church. The people who have allowed the killing in the name of the church and who continue to allow the child-abuse. And let's not get started on the incredible wealth of the Vatican whilst there are still millions of people starving around the world. Did you know that if the Vatican sold 10% of the riches they own they could feed all the starving people in the world for the next 200 years? Sure, I wouldn't sell it off if it was mine, but I'm not an organization that claims to be for the good of all God's people. And who's now at the head of this organization? Oh shit, it's a Porteño! God save us!

What is it I have to apologize for again?

[Caricoso]

The Americas were inhabited long before Spain stumbled upon it. And a reminder that this is the Hippo thread, so, let me steer it back to that topic by saying the Catholic church is rich enough to pay a generous monthly fee to the girls at Hippo so their priests can fuck women instead of altar boys.

Mea culpa, please don't ban me.

I said that Spain discovered America! I didn't mention anything about the inhabitants of the continent at that time. Yes, they were snakes and crocodiles as well.

Spain! The Latino Catholic empire discovered what is called today "America" The whole continent when others were collecting grass to make there own diapers. Now you know!

Catholics church is rich and degenerated? How about the Christian church? Are they poor and honest?

[Caricoso]

Admin: sorry about the thread derail! I started a new thread.

You haven't apologized for what you said about the Catholic church. I assume that you will be banned from this site since our understanding (can't remember exactly the policy of Argentina Private), this is not a site that by any means one can insult or express his hate to others as you did.

Just waiting for what the administrator has to say.

[Caricoso]

Have you ever encountered a predominantly Catholic country that was not a basket case, especially when compared to other predominantly Christian countries?

Tres3.

Spain (a catholic empire), discovered America continent! You probably wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the "Latino Catholic" people.

Argentina, another country that is really free. No sex prison here! That's the reason that most of you guys are here, otherwise the closer you can get to sex is watching some porno on the computer.

What is for you a "predominately country" what is your definition?